I have also seen H as 11, and, let me see S as 8, and S as 6 as well. Shelley L. Rhodes and Judson, guiding golden juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx Guide Dogs For the Blind Inc. Graduate Advisory Council www.guidedogs.com The vision must be followed by the venture. It is not enough to stare up the steps - we must step up the stairs. -- Vance Havner