[bksvol-discuss] historyRE: Re: I have a question please and thank you.
- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 22:19:01 -0700
Hi, Roger, if you really want to go far back, remember that the Celts,
Picts, and other tribes were in the British Isles before the Angles, Saxons,
Jutes, etc. came over. Rome claimed to have conquered Britain also. You are
correct about the Normans conquering England, but the Danes arrived before
they did. Each subsequent wave of immigration, conquest, etc. were
instrumental in changing our language with the result that we have an
absolutely huge amount of words we can call upon to express ourselves. There
are a lot of cultures in this world who have conquered others and that
doesn't make it right. My point is that I don't think we can undo what was
done. I take it you are posing a polemic here, but how far do you want to go
with it? How a person chooses to talk or write is their business. If they
prefer not to use certain Anglo-Saxon words, what's that to anybody?
I don't know if you will persuade anyone or not. You will say what you wish
and so will they. Regards, Kim.P.S.: Maybe this can be moved to the
Bookshare discussion list. What do you think? K.
_____
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:55 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
Swearing is making a solemn promise. To describe those four letter words,
which are actually words from a defunct monosyllabic language which are
considered unrespectable because the people who spoke that language were
conquered and occupied in perpetuity by a foreign power that spoke a more
polysyllabic language, it might be better to simply say that there are words
that might be offensive to some. Now, I know that most of you may be
wondering why I keep bringing up the Norman conquest nearly a thousand years
later. The reason is that as old as the injustice is it is still an
injustice and I think the injustice is still being perpetuated by
denigrating an entire people's language by considering words from it to be
unrespectable or contemptible. It is still the working class that most
frequently uses those words in everyday speech and the elitist contempt for
the working class continues. Also the reason those words are most common
among the working class is that it was the conquered Anglo-Saxons that were
forced into servitude by their Norman rulers.
"The end
may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end.
" Leon Trotsky
The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com
<http://wwww.themilitant.com> Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International: http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
_
table with 2 columns and 6 rows
Subj:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
Date:
9/11/2009 5:59:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:
popularplace@xxxxxxxxx
Reply-to:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent from the Internet
(Details)
table end
then how should I describe four-letter words used in books--just as
swearing? That makes senss, I guess. but "swearing is so general--
Cindy
Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
books-being-scanned list available at sites below
Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
--- On Fri, 9/11/09, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
block quote
From: Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 8:49 AM
In a layman's sense obscenity is material that tends to be sexually
suggestive in nature. Most uses of expletives in fiction don't
measure up to that standard, let alone the legal standard.
I am thinking of things like Tom Clancey where such language is used,
but not in an obscene sense.
On 9/10/09, Cindy <
popularplace@xxxxxxxxx
> wrote:
> I thought, not in the legal sense re books but in language, that certian
> 4-letter words are generally considered to be obscenity, and that is to
what
> I refer when I put my warning in the synopsis
>
> Cindy
>
>
>
> Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
> books-being-scanned list available at sites below
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wish List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
>
>
>
> Books Being Scanned List:
>
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
>
> --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Soronel Haetir <
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
> wrote:
>
> From: Soronel Haetir <
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
> To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 8:20 PM
>
> Certainly the legal definition of obscenity in the US is incredibly
> subjective.
>
> A statement that a work has explicit sexual material etc however is
> much more factual in nature than the obscenity call. If a work meets
> the legal definition bookshare should not carry it because it is in
> fact illegal to both distribute and receive obscene material, though
> legal to possess. That last may seem somewhat strange but is
> nonetheless true.
>
> On 9/10/09,
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
<Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
> wrote:
>> It is hard for me to see how it could be a statement of fact rather than
>> opinion. I know that the very most explicit descriptions of sex do not
>> strike
>> me as obscene. Yet, I am quite aware that there are others who do not
>> agree
>> with that even if I have a hard time understanding their perspective.
That
>> makes it a matter of opinion as I understand the word opinion.
>>
>>
>> "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that
>> justifies
>> the end.
>> " Leon Trotsky
>>
>> The Militant:
http://www.themilitant.com
Pathfinder
>> Press:
>>
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
>> Granma International:
http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>> _
>>
>> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>> Subj:
>> [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>> Date:
>> 9/10/2009 10:07:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>> From:
>>
popularplace@xxxxxxxxx
>> Reply-to:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent from the Internet
>> (Details)
>> table end
>>
>> Possibly; but I consider the reviews to be the place for my opinions of
>> the
>> book, e.g., whether it's well-written, a little strange but worth
>> reading..
>> A
>> statement that a book has explicit descriptions of sex, or violence , or
>> torture, or obscenities or profanity is a satement of fact, not my
>> opinion,
>> and
>> for those who don't want to read books that contain such I think the
>> warning should be in the synopsis, not my review.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
>> books-being-scanned list available at sites below
>>
>> Wish List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
>>
>> Books Being Scanned List:
>>
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
>>
>> --- On Thu, 9/10/09,
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
<Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
> wrote:
>>
>> block quote
>>
>> From:
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
<Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you..
>> To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 9:44 AM
>>
>> When it comes to these warnings of sex, violence and strong language I
>> wonder if it might be more appropriate to write a review and include them
>> there.
>> That is where opinions belong and these warnings really are a matter of
>> opinion, especially the ones about strong language. As I said, I have
read
>> NLS
>> books that were labeled as containing explicit descriptions of sex and
>> strong language. When finished I found myself asking two questions. There
>> were
>> descriptions
>> of sex, but how was it explicit? The second one was where was the strong
>> language at all?
>>
>> "The end
>> may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the
>> end.
>> " Leon Trotsky
>>
>> The Militant:
>>
http://www.themilitant.com
>> Pathfinder Press:
>>
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
>> Granma International:
>>
http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>> _
>>
>> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>> Subj:
>> [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>> Date:
>> 9/9/2009 6:46:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>
>> From:
>>
popularplace@xxxxxxxxx
>> Reply-to:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent from the Internet
>> (Details)
>> table end
>>
>> I do exactly what you suggest. Unfortunately since there isn't, or wasn't
>> when there was a 250 limit in the short synopsis I put such a warning in
>> the
>> long synopsis.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
>> books-being-scanned list available at sites below
>>
>> Wish List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
>>
>> Books Being Scanned List:
>>
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
>>
>> --- On Wed, 9/9/09, Judy s. <
cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote:
>>
>> block quote
>>
>> From: Judy s. <
cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>> To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2009, 10:49 AM
>>
>> Jackie, I so get what you are saying (and I'm so sorry about your
>> daughter!). It isn't a case of censorship. It's a case of wanting to be
>> able
>> to
>> appropriately
>> choose what to read. I've lost one third of my entire family in the last
>> few years in not one, but two separate car accidents, one that was so
>> horrific
>> it was reported in photos and TV news across the Midwest. I don't want to
>> just open a book that involves anything graphic regarding car accidents,
>> because
>> of that. It's still too raw, and I don't want to be 'surprised' by it
when
>> I am reading or proofreading something.
>>
>> The NLS system does seem better than the bookshare way of marking things
>> as
>> adult or not adult, because it at least helps raise a flag to help people
>> decide
>> what to read before they come across things they don't want to read.
>>
>> Judy s.
>>
>> Jackie McBride wrote:
>>> Perhaps to put this in a bit of context:
>>> a) I have had books that were *obviously* meant for children marked as
>>> adult lol! but
>>> b) Rather than adult or not, I do wish that bookshare would do what
>>> the NLS does & put stuff like explicit descriptions of sex, violence,
>>> strong language, etc., in the summary. That way, folks who aren't
>>> particularly interested in reading that stuff know what they're
>>> getting *b4* they come across it.
>>>
>>> I'll give an example, &, though it's probably a poor 1, may hopefully
>>> serve to illustrate the point.
>>>
>>> My daughter was very brutally murdered in 2007. I was deeply affected
>>> by the event, having nightmares for many months in vivid technicolor
>>> of the descriptions I had been given of the scene by the police. I
>>> hadn't dreamed in color for many years, but it certainly let me know I
>>> could do that. I decided as a diversion to proof a book for bookshare.
>>> I downloaded it, & the 1st chapter contained a rather graphic scene of
>>> a native American being tortured. Let's just say I did not fare well
>>> (the understatement of the century) & leave it at that. I'm certain
>>> some of the volunteers on the list at that time remember the incident
>>> as a few gave me some counseling regarding my conflict as a new
>>> volunteer between finishing what I started but feeling unable to
>>> continue, which, was, btw, appreciated. Had I known the book contained
>>> graphic violence, I obviously never would have downloaded it. Perhaps
>>> this is extreme, but I do think that we should have some way of
>>> knowing that books we're thinking about contain these things in case
>>> we don't want to read about them, or, in the case of parents, in case
>>> we don't want our children reading them.
>>>
>>> So perhaps there should be checkmarks for things like violence,
>>> language, & sex. Just my $02, as opposed to simply being rated adult.
>>>
>>> On 9/9/09, Chela Robles <
>>
cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxx
>>> wrote:
>>>> Gwinn, everyone has different tastes, for instance, I don't like the
way
>>>> Kenny G plays his saxophone, circular breathing, that is how Rafael
>> Mendez,
>>>> a trumpeter died, did something to his lungs and decreased velocity, I
>> don't
>>>> like Rick Braun, a trumpeter, his style is not my favorite, I like to
>>>> broaden my horizon when it comes to books, but again, if I don't feel
>>>> comfortable about reading a book say about gays and lesbians, for
>> example,
>>>> then I'd just delete it no harm will come to me anyway, it just depends
>> on
>>>> your preference, like if you like only vanilla, to me, I have to have
>>>> something other than vanilla ice cream because it is just blah to me,
>> get
>>>> what I trying to say here? I have to agree with Roger, Cindy, and
>> everyone
>>>> else here. Don't take this personally though, guys, can we stop this
>>>> discussion, please and go on with our lives, because it is ultimately
up
>> to
>>>> the person whether they choose what to read or not, end of discussion,
>> thank
>>>> you!
>>>> Chela Robles jazz trumpeter/enthusiast/almost LMT
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: gwen tweedy
>>>> To:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:22 AM
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not so much uncomfortable as
>>>> lots of those books they have loads of it I have one grown daughter, so
>>>> I'm not as prudish as you might imagine. But when you have just pages
>> and
>>>> pages of discriptions which really add nothing to a story I guess I
just
>>>> don't need to read about it and my nieces and nephes if they had to be
>> here,
>>>> don't need to read about it either and if it's marked as no adult
>> content,
>>>> that would say to me that anyone could read it.
>>>> I don't care what people read but there is plenty of books out there I
>>>> have seen even in here, that doesn't have that stuff and it's perfectly
>>>> enjoyable.
>>>> A person does it in the privacy of their bedrooms I don't care if it
>> sales
>>>> or not for me it doesn't sell. And I as a reader have just as much
right
>> to
>>>> read the tamer stuff and can have the right to have that choice without
>>>> worrying if I'm gonna stumble on what I determine as sorry but for me
>>>> personally it is smut.
>>>> For you it's fine reading yea that is good but I should be able to go
>> into
>>>> one of these departments and be free from that if I so choose.
>>>> I pick out what I want at the grocery store so I should be able to do
>> the
>>>> same here. Supposing my niece had been looking over my shoulder I
didn't
>>>> know about this particular book and opened it
>>>> sorry but thanks, but no thanks my niece and I shouldn't accidentally
>>>> stumble upon this in trying to find a book.
>>>> I know I'm wierd. I except that.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From:
>>
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
>>>> To:
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:43 PM
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, it is up to the person with tender sensibilities to find
>>>> something they can enjoy rather than ask someone else to cater to those
>>>> sensibilities, but frankly, I don't see how they can do it. I have
>> noticed
>>>> that the most popular topic of small talk wherever you go, beating out
>> even
>>>> the weather, is sex. If I were going to avoid the topic of sex I think
I
>>>> would just have to quit reading and having conversations. So, not only
>> is it
>>>> an almost impossible topic to avoid, it is also a topic that I can't
see
>> how
>>>> it could make anyone uncomfortable. That is like being offended by
>> someone
>>>> saying that they went to the grocery store yesterday. I would think
that
>>>> maintaining such an attitude toward sex would be a lot more stressful
>> than
>>>> actually being exposed to it if one does have that attitude.
>>>>
>>>> "The
>>>> end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies
>> the
>>>> end.
>>>> " Leon Trotsky
>>>>
>>>> The Militant:
>>
http://www.themilitant.com
>> Pathfinder Press:
>>>>
>>
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
>>>> Granma International:
>>
http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>>>> _
>>>>
>>>> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>>>> Subj:
>>>> [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>>>> Date:
>>>> 9/9/2009 12:27:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>> From:
>>>>
>>
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Reply-to:
>>>>
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To:
>>>>
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>> (Details)
>>>> table end
>>>>
>>>> Once more I am in agreement with Roger. If your sensibilities are
>>>> that tender it should be up to you to take whatever steps you require
>>>> to find something you can enjoy. Asking others to cater to you at
>>>> that level is simply too much.
>>>>
>>>> On 9/8/09,
>>
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
>> <
Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
>>> wrote:
>>>> > Some time ago I recall Pavi saying that the dictionary that algorithm
>>>> uses
>>>> > was reviewed and that it was laughable when they saw some of the
words
>>>> that
>>>> > were in it. Supposedly that was corrected, but I very much suspect
>>>> that I
>>>> > would still consider it laughable. Honestly, I was once telling
>>>> someone
>>>> > something another person said. I mentioned that the person had said
>>>> that
>>>> > another
>>>> > person was pissed off. I do not ordinarily use that phrase myself,
but
>>>> since
>>>> > I was relating what someone else said I did that time. I was angrily
>>>> accused
>>>> > of being obscene. It never even occurred to me in my wildest
>>>> speculations
>>>> > that anyone would consider that to be obscene and if I had found it
in
>>>> that
>>>> > dictionary of prohibited words and phrases I would have found that
>>>> > laughable.
>>>> > Nevertheless, someone did consider it obscene. That is why I tend to
>>>> think
>>>> > that the person who is offended by so-called "adult" words has the
>>>> problem,
>>>> > not the one who utters them.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that
>>>> justifies
>>>> > the end.
>>>> > " Leon Trotsky
>>>> >
>>>> > The Militant:
>>
http://www.themilitant.com
>> Pathfinder
>>>> Press:
>>>> >
>>
http://www..pathfinderpress.com
>>>> > Granma International:
>>
http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>>>> > _
>>>> >
>>>> > table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>>>> > Subj:
>>>> > [bksvol-discuss] Re: I have a question please and thank you.
>>>> > Date:
>>>> > 9/8/2009 10:48:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>> > From:
>>>> >
>>
cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> > Reply-to:
>>>> >
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> > To:
>>>> >
>>
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> > Sent from the Internet
>>>> > (Details)
>>>> > table end
>>>> >
>>>> > Evan, I've wondered about how that algorithm works too, because
>>>> > of the children's books I've proofed that were erroneously marked
>>>> > as adult by the algorithm. I'd bet part of it is based on
>>>> > Bookshare useing a dictionary of words that can be considered
>>>> > adult (with some contexting built in, I'd guess). The final
>>>> > designation of adult comes about by using a weighting of the
>>>> > number of times words/terms/phrases appear factored against the
>>>> > total number of words in a book.. So if you have a children's
>>>> > book with very few words, and one of the 'suspect' words appears,
>>>> > although it could be in a totally innocent context, bam! The
>>>> > children's book is going to get rated as adult. I had that
>>>> > happen a few months ago with a board book I was proofreading!
>>>> >
>>>> > Just guessing here, of course. smile.
>>>> >
>>>> > Judy s.
>>>> >
>>>> > EVAN REESE wrote:
>>>> >> What determines adult content is ultimately the proofreader.
>>>> Bookshare's
>>>> >> computer can mark a book either Adult or not, using some secret
>>>> >> algorithm that staff refuses to divulge to us, but the proofreader
>>>> can
>>>> >> change the Bookshare computer's choice if he/she feels that a change
>>>> is
>>>> >> justified. It used to be either the submitter and/or the
proofreader,
>>>> >> but Bookshare took that choice away from submitters and seems to
have
>>>> no
>>>> >> inclination to give it back.
>>>> >
>>>> > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>>>> >
>>
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a
>>>> list of
>>>> > available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject
>>>> > line..
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Soronel Haetir
>>>>
>>
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>>>>
>>
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list
>>>> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject
>> line.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>>
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list
of
>> available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
>>
>> block quote end
>>
>> block quote end
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Soronel Haetir
>
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
> available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
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