Kenneth,
I'm not sure if my answer to Jim got posted, but ...
I'm not sure if it would work, but my idea is that
the stripper be eliminated, since it seems to strip
pages along with the header, even though it isn't
supposed to, from what we've been told. The
validators' job would include eliminating the headers
by hand, or , where it's possible, by a global replace
with nothing (I've done that many times and it works
well) but leaving in page numbers of putting them in
if they aren't there. That would solve the problem Jim
mentioned of some people who listen to books and/or
don't have machines that can eliminated headers for
themselves. Whether a validator does the minimum of
checking copyrights and being sure that all the pages
are there, eliminating headers wouldn't take that much
more time, and those of us who read and correct as we
go along probably do it already. It really isn't a big
deal for a validator--and certaiinly the small amount
of work and time that's involved is worth it to ensure
that the Bookshare member and reader has page numbers
but not headers. I don't see what function headers
have. I wish a publisher of editor could tell us. I
wonder if it isn't just a left-over tradition from
when books were first published and monks and scribes
decorated books. I'll have to do some research.
Cindy
-- "Kenneth A. Cross" <crossk@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just can't help repeating the point that stripping
page numbers
invalidates the book for any serious researcher or
teacher or leader of a
discussion among blind and sighted users. What we
end up with is a service
only for the casual reader. That does not mean we
don't have a positive
resource, but it does limit its use, particularly in
areas where employment
could result from a more controlled treatment.
I personally have submitted a large number of
materials which could be used
in research. They can't be, because one would have
to procure a print book
and a sighted helper to use them. To me, that is a
great concern,
particularly because I, too, would like to use some
of the materials on the
system and have the ability to refer to specific
pages in discussions and
teaching.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
contrarians?
> Hi Scott:
> As I stated before:
>
> "Regular print books have headers, some have
footers, that is part of a
> print book.
> If we want digital copies of print books then,
take the good with the
bad."
>
> If I don't want to read the headers, I can strip
them out myself or use
an
> automated tool (k1000) to do so."
>
> Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from stripping
those headers out
> yourself before you begin reading.
> It would then leave the material in the master
copy for those of us who
want
> it.
>
> In fact, I would do more touch-up work on things
like headers but I don't
> because the first couple of lines of each page
seem to be the strippers
> domain and therefore my efforts would be futile.
>
> The ironic thing is that we spend time on this
list devising and testing
> various stripper countermeasures and bookshare is
aware of this and does
not
> discourage it.
>
> Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6.
> (It's like rolling a boulder up hill)
>
>
> Jim:
> You make some interesting points.
> As someone has previously mentioned, if the
headers are too mangled, not
> even the stripper will strip them.
>
> The stripper is just plain erratic. It does
different things to the
same
> header within the same book.
>
> This is clearly a case where the benefit is not
worth the cost. not with
all
> this collateral damage being done.
>
> I urge you all to continue doing what your doing.
(if anything try to
> validate a little more so we can cut down the step
1 page)
>
> I will drop this issue for now, but i am not
forgetting about it and I
trust
> after these last couple days, Bookshare won't
forget either.
>
> -- Rui
> a 2004 Volunteer of the year
> and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
contrarians?
>
>
> > Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare
books. I mostly read
fiction,
> > with the occasional pop culture book thrown in
for variety. I read
almost
> > all these books in Braille. I don't want to see
repeated text such as
page
> > numbers, author/title info, etc. If people want
to be able to see that
> > info, there should be an option to include or
exclude this from your
book.
> > Chapters and other major headings should be
included of course, and I
> > believe that problem will be addressed.
> >
> > As a validator, I can't think of a good enough
reason at this point to
> > stop submitting books and validating them. That
includes the stripper
> > issue. If we stop submitting or validating
works, we're hurting a much
> > larger group of people than ourselves. The
ultimate purpose of Bookshare
> > is to give access to books. There are still many
books rated fair on the
> > website, and in the past I'm sure there were a
much higher percentage of
> > "fair" books submitted to the site, but we
wouldn't have wanted those
> > books held back from being available just
because they were poorly
> > scanned. I don't want people deprived of books
just because of a missing
> > chapter heading, or because there aren't page
numbers included.
> >
> > Let's take things slow and easy folks.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those
contrarians?
> >
> >
> >> Hello:
> >>
> >> I would like to here from people who disagree
with me.
> >> Let me know why you think the current setup
makes sense.
> >>
> >> I do not mean for people to play devil's
advocate with this.
> >> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees with
the centiments expressed
> >> over the last 30 hours.
> >>
> >> (There is a method to my madness)
> >>
> >> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech right
now as much as the
> >> plague)
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
colatteral damage
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
> >>>
> >>> I think a petition is an excellent idea.
Charlyn, would you like to
put
> >>> it
> >>> together? Rui, would you put it on the
Bookshare Scans site?
> >>>
> >>> I also think we should select a day to make
phone calls and send
emails
> >>> to
> >>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn
off the stripper. How
> >>> about
> >>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most
recent stripper discussion
> >>> began.
> >>>
> >>> We need to take in the fact that, as Bookshare
volunteers and users,
we
> >>> must
> >>> have direct say on policy issues. Right now
this list is virtually
the
> >>> only
> >>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and it
is clearly ineffective.
> >>> The
> >>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more
formalized means of
> >>> communication. Maybe we should develop an
advisory committee which
can
> >>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real
voice in policymaking.
> >>>
> >>> As blind people, most of us have grown up with
the sense that we're
> >>> lucky to
> >>> get whatever reading matter is offered to us.
We had better be
> >>> appreciative
> >>> and not complain. On the title page of every
book from the National
> >>> Library
> >>> Service we read that the book has been
produced for the blind and
> >>> physically
> >>> handicapped "with the kind permission of the
publisher." That line
> >>> about
> >>> "the kind permission" says so much! Do
sighted people need anyone's
> >>> kind
> >>> permission in order to read? I AM in fact
extraordinarily grateful to
> >>> the
> >>> volunteers and others who have spent countless
hours putting books
into
> >>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to
those who have worked to
> >>> change
> >>> copyright laws and make our special-format
books possible! Most of us
> >>> would
> >>> not be literate, educated, contributing
members of society without
their
> >>> help! But I think that our lifelong
dependence upon others to provide
> >>> us
> >>> with books, and the constant feeling that we
must be grateful and that
> >>> we
> >>> can't expect too much, do take a toll.
> >>>
> >>> Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a
program which is not only FOR
> >>> us,
> >>> but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine what
books go into the
> >>> collection,
> >>> and we ourselves make them available. We are
not "only volunteers"
who
> >>> have
> >>> no right to determine policy. We are the
backbone of the program - a
> >>> program which is created to meet our needs and
those of other blind
and
> >>> print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff
are not users of Bookshare
> >>> materials. They do not live with the
inaccessibility of print; they
> >>> don't
> >>> experience our issues from the inside. It is
absolutely essential
that
> >>> they
> >>> listen to what we have to say.
> >>>
> >>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I
believe in it utterly. It
has
> >>> the
> >>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as no
other program ever has
> >>> before. But we need to take a stand and
insist that it be the quality
> >>> program we all deserve.
> >>>
> >>> Debbie
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
colatteral damage
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of
some sort and put a notice
on
> >>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we
could get enough people to
> >>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting them
to stop using the
program.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM
> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
colatteral damage
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We take pride in our submissions and I just
don't think a lot of the
> >>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and
frustrated we are when we
see
> >>>> that our submissions have been mangled. And
for what? I just don't
get
> >>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to that
useless program that
> >>>> nobody
> >>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it
would mean one less step
> >>>> and
> >>>> less work in putting the books on the site.
> >>>>
> >>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking points
in .mp3 files too, when
> >>>> I'm lucky enough to have them.
> >>>>
> >>>> It might not be our decision and they might
not want to listen to us,
> >>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the
volunteers and subscribers
> >>>> have a major role in determining the future
of bookshare.
> >>>>
> >>>> Pam
> >>>>
> >>>> Original message:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> >I have seriously considered not submitting
some books I have scanned
> >>>> >just
> >>>> >because I thought they would be of little
use after the stripper
> >>>> finished
> >>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what I
submit and it is really
> >>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my
original looked so nice,
and
> >>>> that
> >>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am upset
by the messes that I
come
> >>>> >accross when I am reading, even for
pleasure. I use the chapter
> >>>> headings
> >>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if
they aren't there I have a
> >>>> big
> >>>> >mess!
> >>>> >
> >>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I
won't on this list because
it
> >>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the fits
are completely
justified.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF
format instead of in RTF
would
> >>>> >the
> >>>> >normal automated processes be skipped? That
is the only thing I can
> >>>> think
> >>>> >of to rescue books where the headers,
headings, and page numbers are
> >>>> >invaluable.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
> >>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer
http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
> >>>> >----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
<dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> >>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> >>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
colatteral damage
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%!
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff
about our concerns,
> >>>> >> politely
> >>>>
> >>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. Despite
all the talk, nothing
has
> >>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we need
to take stronger action.
> >>>> >> We
> >>>>
> >>>> >> ARE volunteers.
> >>>> >> We do not have to contribute the thousands
of hours we put into
this
> >>>> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive
without us. Do we need to
> >>>> >> say
> >>>> we
> >>>> >> will have to stop scanning and validating
until we know that
someone
> >>>> out
> >>>> >> there is really listening to us, and
taking action? It should not
> >>>> have
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but many
of us are at our wit's
> >>>> end.
> >>>> >> What
> >>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the
stripper and stop mangling the
> >>>> books
> >>>> >> we
> >>>> >> work so hard to make available?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Debbie
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
> >>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
> >>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and
colatteral damage
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, I
made it very clear to
Jim
> >>>> >>> (like
> >>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with
the stripper and why i
think
> >>>> >> it should be removed.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper bothers
me, not just the fact
it
> >>>> >>> does
> >>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me.
> >>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some
have footers, that is part
> >>>> >>> of
> >>>>
> >>>> >>> a
> >>>> >> print book.
> >>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print books
then, take the good with
> >>>> >>> the
> >>>> >>> bad.
> >>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it more
access technology
> >>>> >>> friendly.
> >>>>
> >>>> >>> The
> >>>> >> very fact that is accessible already does
that.
> >>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i
can strip them out myself
or
> >>>> >>> use
> >>>> >>> my
> >>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
> >>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them
there, I simply do not get
> >>>> >>> that
> >>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much this
issue ticks me off.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve
the community that it was
> >>>> >>> designed
> >>>> >> to assist.
> >>>> >>> -- Rui
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
> >>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> > Pam
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and
unpredictable. And the problems
> >>>> >>> > relative
> >>>> >>> > to it have been discussed repeatedly.
> >>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware of
the damage the stripper
> >>>> has
> >>>> >> caused
> >>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the back
burner probably due to
> >>>> >>> > more
> >>>>
> >>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a
shame that it cannot be
> >>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her
leaving, pretty much
> >>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I wouldn't
expect much change
> >>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change
would require some sort of
> >>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer action.
Conceptually, the
stripper
> >>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has been a
> >>>> >> dismal
> >>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps
even more) than it has
> >>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we
are volunteers, not
> >>>> >>> > decision-makers.
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database:
267.9.2/52 - Release Date:
> >>>> 7/19/2005
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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