[bksvol-discuss] Re: Visual Perception was Awesome -
- From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
Another problem we sighted people often have is that we see what we expect to
see and not what is there, which is why scannos sometimes escape us and why I
always do a spell-check after reading a book.
Cindy
>________________________________
> From: Chela Robles <cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:50 AM
>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Visual Perception was Awesome - 151,663 Titles
>on Bookshare
>
>
>Wow this is amazing, I have sighted friends and never knew they had selective
>seeing kind of like some people I know have selective hearing. Hmmm, going to
>ponder this too!
>
>--
"Passion is a great motivator. Music is a life-long learning experience."
--
Chela Robles
Facebook/Linked-In/E-mail/AIM/GoogleTalk: cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxx Windows Live
Messenger: cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxxxx E-Buddy ID: cdrobles693
Skype: jazzytrumpet
Learning Ally Blog A Lady And Her Trumpet feel free to post comments by filling
out the form on the page at: http://tinyurl.com/84tucwv I volunteer for
Bookshare, to find out more and to volunteer with us,visit:
http://www.bookshare.org/ Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary!
http://tinyurl.com/752cyrs Need more space, come join dropbox and start with
two gigs of free space as is this is my referral link to you:
http://db.tt/XpUTe0E --
On 6/23/2012 10:25 AM, Lori Castner wrote:
>
>Roger, I find your comments in this thread to be extremely intriguing and
>thought-provoking.
>>
>>I have been blind all my life and I always enjoy knowing how eyes perceive
>>the world!
>>
>>Could go on and on about this topic, but this probably is not the place to do
>>so! So I’ll go away and ponder.
>>
>>Lori C.
>>
>>
>>From:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
>>Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:45 AM
>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Awesome - 151,663 Titles on Bookshare
>>
>>The reason two sighted people can look at something and see different things
>>is because of all of those details. Some details will catch one person's
>>attention and other details will catch another person's attention. Some
>>details will seem more important to some people and other details will seem
>>more important to others. That is one reason why a description can never
>>replace the picture. The describer is describing the details that strike the
>>describer as important. There is no telling what may not be mentioned that
>>you would have considered important if you had known about it. As for
>>distractions, well, being able to see all of those details certainly gives
>>you more to be distracted by. I have found that when I became blind I was
>>forced to concentrate on a lot of things that were not matters of
>>concentration before. When I even walk down the street I have to concentrate
>>on virtually every step, keep track of where I am, think ahead to the next
landmark or street corner and so forth. When I could see I could just walk
down the street concentrating solely on what I was going to do when I got to my
destination. Frankly, it would be really nice if I could go back to
concentrating on what I want to concentrate on rather than what I have to
concentrate on, but I have to put up with the situation I am in. Some people
are more easily distracted than others. That is one reason why some people are
better at learning something than others. Some people can sit in a classroom
and look at the material on their desk and listen to the teacher and be
absorbed by it. Others glance up at the window and find themselves thinking
about what they see outside and completely miss the lesson in progress. A
totally blind person may not have those distractions, but I am sure they do
still have their distractions even if it is a matter of thinking ahead to what
they are going to have for dinner. It takes self discipline
to filter out the unimportant distractions and some people are successful at
it and others are not. It can be annoying to be trying to engage someone and
then realize that the person is not paying attention to you, but that is the
way things go.
>>On 6/23/2012 12:02 PM, Sandi Ryan wrote:
>> Just one thought on this topic: Since one sighted person sees something
>>different from another's perception, who is to say who sees "the whole
>>picture" and who doesn't? You have a right, of course, to believe that sight
>>is the way to "see" things as they are, and nothing else is as good.
>>>
>>>Having been blind all my life, I find that too many details just clutter up
>>>my brain. Do I want description? Yes, I do. It gives me a mental
>>>picture--valid or not--of what I'm reading about. Many authors do this
>>>extremely well without pictures--they do it in words. Those are the best
>>>descriptions, because they come directly from the author's mind. But do I
>>>need to know about missing hairs, dust motes, etc.? Only if it has value to
>>>the story.
>>>
>>>I've always felt a little lucky not to have to be distracted by everything
>>>people can see. Nothing annoys me more than standing somewhere having a
>>>conversation with a sighted person, who's purportedly paying attention to
>>>our conversation, and to have them suddenly yell out "Hey, Judy, I need to
>>>talk to you!" As a blind person, when I'm with you talking, I'm with you!
>>>In that way, I think blindness is better!
>>>
>>>Now, before you think I believe everyone should be blind, I'll tell you I do
>>>not. But I do think a lot of sighted people need to stop being distracted
>>>by every little thing they can see and learn to focus their vision, as I
>>>must focus my hearing, touch, smell and taste, to "see" not the whole world,
>>>but the important parts!
>>>
>>>There you have the opinion of a blind person.
>>>
>>>Sandi
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Roger Loran Bailey
>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:22 AM
>>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Awesome - 151,663 Titles on Bookshare
>>>>
>>>>When I was losing my eyesight I had numerous eye surgeries. On occasion I
>>>>found myself in a hospital bed with my eyes bandaged and the nurses would
>>>>come around. This blindness stuff was rather new to me, so I asked the
>>>>nurses to describe themselves. Some of them went into very great detail and
>>>>I formed mental images of them. Then the bandages would come off and I
>>>>could see them and I saw that their descriptions were very accurate.
>>>>However, none of them looked anything at all like I had them pictured. The
>>>>simple fact is that if you have normal eyesight and you merely glance at
>>>>something you, without even necessarily being consciously aware of it, take
>>>>in an enormous amount of subtle detail. These details include very subtle
>>>>grades of color, texture,minute features, a wayward hair, a dust mote
>>>>levels of lighting, sources of lighting, background detail and so many
>>>>other things that neither I nor anyone else can go into them. This is all
>>>>in just a single
glance, not even a careful study. Your description may be good, but it cannot
possibly cover everything. There is just too much, including details that even
though you are looking right at them you are not consciously aware of and that
other people seeing the same thing may be aware of. I once met a blind woman
who insisted that describing was just as good as seeing because she could
describe someone well enough that you could pick them out in a crowd. She had
never seen, though, and my disagreement with her was based on my previous
experience as a sighted person. She still insisted though. I am sure that those
nurses had described themselves well enough that I could have picked them out
in a crowd too, but they still did not look anything like I had them pictured.
Descriptions often have to do and some descriptions do better than other
descriptions, but there is no way that a description will reproduce the
picture.
>>>>On 6/23/2012 2:11 AM, Cindy wrote:
>>>>I must take issue with your comment that "no" words can cover all the
>>>>detail in a picture that an eye can take in a single glance. It
>>>>does,however, take a great many words. If you look at some of the early
>>>>children's books for which I described pictures, you'll see they are very
>>>>detailed--including the pictures on the walls, the furniture in rooms, the
>>>>clothes the people wore, what the people looked like, what food was fallng
>>>>from the sky, and more; I was so used to being very detailed in my picture
>>>>descriptions that I kept on when I described the various photos and
>>>>pictures in Medals of Honor; especially when it was pointed out that many
>>>>blind people had no idea what the medal of Honor was or what some of the
>>>>statues and locations that I identified looked
>>>>>It occurred to me, later that it was not necessary in adult books that I
>>>>>later proofed that I had to describe the illustrations; I could just
>>>>>identify them. When I began describing images for the Poet Project, I
>>>>>continued being detailed in my descriptions; check the descriptions in the
>>>>>the early pages of Glencoe Health book. Then I was told that the image
>>>>>descriptions should be *short* complete sentences; so I stopped describing
>>>>>what the person looked like and what he/she was wearing and the
>>>>>surroundings. I wish I could remember which history book the textile mill
>>>>>photo is in. That description took a great many words (and time) to
>>>>>describe.
>>>>>Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 5:20 PM
>>>>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Awesome - 151,663 Titles on Bookshare
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Actually, I think a picture is worth so
many times a thousand words that the
count is unimaginable. That is, no
description can possibly cover all the
detail in a picture that a single glance
can take in.
>>>>>>On 6/22/2012 6:05 PM, Chela Robles
wrote:
>>>>>>> And, you do know a picture is worth
a thousand words, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- "Passion is a great motivator.
Music is a life-long learning
experience."
>>>>>>> -- Chela Robles
>>>>>>>
Facebook/Linked-In/E-mail/AIM/GoogleTalk:
cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Windows Live Messenger: cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> E-Buddy ID: cdrobles693
>>>>>>> Skype: jazzytrumpet
>>>>>>> Learning Ally Blog A Lady And Her
Trumpet feel free to post comments by
filling out the form on the page at:
http://tinyurl.com/84tucwv
>>>>>>> I volunteer for Bookshare, to find
out more and to volunteer with us,visit:
http://www.bookshare.org/
>>>>>>> Join us in celebrating our 10th
Anniversary!
>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/752cyrs
>>>>>>> Need more space, come join dropbox
and start with two gigs of free space as
is this is my referral link to you:
http://db.tt/XpUTe0E
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> On 6/22/2012 3:00 PM, Ali Al-hajamy
wrote:
>>>>>>>> It may sound odd, but even as a
blind participant who has never had
sight of any sort, illustrations are
important to me because I read many
fictions which use illustrations in an
effort to produce a certain desired
effect with pictures, and even just
knowing what is on the page is enough to
get me involved enough in the book to
feel the effect they're trying to
accomplish. Two examples are The Raw
Shark Texts, by Steven Hall, and The
Tunnel, by William H. Gass. In the
former case, at one point, the main
character falls out of a ship and into
water, and a giant shark made entirely
of words and information (it's
complicated) begins to swim through the
water twoards him. For maybe forty
pages, the picture of the shark is
printed on the page, and it keeps
getting larger and larger. Because each
page had a description of the shark
swimming twoards the character, growing
with each page, my experience of the
book was more enhanced than if I didn't
have those descriptions. My reaction to
the rest of the book was mixed, but that
was one trick which I thought worked
very well. It was hilarious and
terrifying at the same time.
>>>>>>>> The Tunnel is a more
complicated case.
>>>>>>>> (SPOILERS AHEAD! It doesn't
matter since I can't think of anyone
here [or anywhere, really] who would be
interested in reading that book, but
just in case...)
>>>>>>>> It is about a college
professor, called William Frederick
Kohler, who is working on his hypothesis
concerning the Germans, called Guilt and
Innocence in Hitler's Germany. he has
almost completed it, save for the
introduction, but cannot manage to write
those final pages:
>>>>>>>> "It was my intention, when I
began, to write an introduction to my
work on the Germans. Though its thick
folders lie beside me now, I know I
cannot. Endings, instead, possess me.
all ways out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Embarrassed, I'm compelled to
smile. I was going to extend my sympathy
to my opponents. Here, in my
introduction, raised above me like an
arch of triumph, I meant to place a
wreath upon myself. But each time I
turned my pen to the task, it turned
aside to strike me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I look at the pages of my
manuscript, or stare at the books which
wall my study, I realize I must again
attempt to put this prison of my life in
language."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He begins to write an extended
meditation about his own life instead of
the introduction to the book he thought
he had to have. Around two hundred pages
in, he also begins to dig a tunnel out
of his basement, creating his own
physical metaphor and giving the books
title duel meanings. We, the readers,
are tunnelling into his thoughts, he is
tunnelling out of the life he hates,
with the new book he is writing about
himself he is tunnelling away from the
hypothesis he can't finish. And all the
tunnels lead to a dead end. (There's a
point to this, I swear). Gass uses
numerous graphical tricks to immerse you
in the experience. Drawings, cartoons,
at one point, a page that is made to
look like a crinkled grocery sack, ETC.
I haven't read the entire book yet, but
one that stands out at me is the very
last page. Kohler has created his own
imaginary political group, called the
party of the Disappointed People, yet he
knows that this, like everything else,
would be a failure because it's the type
of party few would want to admit they've
joined. At the end of the book, he is in
ruins. His wife is leaving him, he has
nearly been buried alive by his tunnel,
he doesn't know what the point to both
his books was:
>>>>>>>> "Write no more propaganda for
the PdP. Achieve dignity Sport a swatch
of Shawwhite beard bleached to remove
cig stains, and trimmed square to greet
the face of its maker. In short, to
abide. In the last hamlet of feeling.
I'm inclined to say why not? Sure. Or
dump every dirty drawer onto my
desk--wasn't that really Martha's
suggestion?--till the desk's hid, as
well as Tabor's turning chair and the
floor which firmed our feet, covering
the pages of my History as my History
sheeted me; there to let my words wait,
like the disappointed people bide,
before they try life again. Meanwhile
carry on without complaining. No arm
with armband raised on high. No more
booming bands, no searchlit skies. Or
shall I, like the rivers, rise? Ah.
Well. Is rising wise? Revolver like the
Führer near an ear. Or lay my mind down
by sorrow's side."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The final page simply contains
the symbol for the PDP. I've likely
mangled everything in my description,
because I haven't read the entire book,
I've never had to put my admiration for
it into words like this, and there's so,
so much more to it than what I've just
described here, so the effect is always
diminished if you haven't read the
entire thing first, but to have gone
through everything we have with Kohler
for 651 pages, to have tunnelled with
him, so to speak, and then to read his
final declaration, followed by that
reminder of his final failure...It's
quite devistating. And I don't think I
would have experienced the book in that
manner if the images were not described.
I don't even need an especially detailed
description, though it helps, just
something to signify what is on the
page. And Bookshare staff and volunteers
do both wonderfully.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tl;dr (too long; didn't read)
version (since I think there might be
one person who has read this entire
message):
>>>>>>>> I REALLY LIKE THE DESCRIPTIONS
THEY'RE VERY HELPFUL AND MAKE THE
BOOK-READING EXPERIENCE BETTER!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22-Jun-12 15:40, Judy s.
wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I just looked at the new
version of Bookshare's entry page on the
website (http://www.bookshare.org). I love the
new feature on the right hand side of the page that's a counter of how many
books are in the collection. As of today, there are 151,663 titles. That is
totally awesome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a sighted but disabled
member, I'm also grateful for and
thrilled by the number of publisher
quality books that have entered the
collection in the last 18 months with
the original illustrations intact. I
haven't read a book where I can look at
the illustrations for over 20 years.
Way to go, Bookshare! I'm psyched about
the POET project to get illustrations
described. It gives me hope that
eventually everyone can have access to
both illustrations and good descriptions
of the illustrations in the future.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Judy s.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this
list send a blank Email to
>>>>>>>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe'
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list
send a blank Email to
>>>>>>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by
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list of available commands, put the word
'help' by itself in the subject line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list send
a blank Email to
>>>>>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by
itself in the subject line. To get a
list of available commands, put the word
'help' by itself in the subject line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To unsubscribe from this list send a
blank Email to
>>>>>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in
the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help'
by itself in the subject line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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