[bksvol-discuss] Re: Rejection of proofed books

  • From: "Denise Wagner" <denisecwagner@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 17:46:20 -0500

Hi Alisa (and all),

I actually like getting my proofs back if there's a problem -- that's how I learn. I'll keep making the same mistakes, no matter how small, if they don't come back (or at least an"FYI, we had to fix XYZ"). It can be a little disappointing, and a small hit to the pride for us perfectionists *grin*, but I do take it as a learning exercise.

Denise

-----Original Message----- From: Alisa Moore
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:31 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Rejection of proofed books

Hi all.

I want you to know that we (Bookshare staff and Collections Department folks) share your pain around the rejection of books that require only minor editing changes (such as adding page breaks or a font change). Until now, our own staff have been unable to make simple editing changes to your proofed books, and so they've been returned to you for editing, often with only minor edits! What a waste of time for everyone, and we know it creates a lot of frustration and anger to have your work rejected in its entirety, when there are only a few, easily corrected errors.

Happily, we have new product managers who now understand our problem (our not being able to make small revisions in-house) and this issue has been made a top priority in our engineering department to fix asap. I will keep you posted on progress. But please know that we are as eager as you, to make this improvement to our system. We believe that this will reduce as many as 50% of the rejections you now receive on your proofread books, saving all of us time and energy.

Thanks for your patience.

Alisa Moore

-----Original Message-----
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager [mailto:ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:10 PM
To: bksvol-discuss digest users
Subject: bksvol-discuss Digest V9 #11

bksvol-discuss Digest   Wed, 11 Jan 2012        Volume: 09  Issue: 011

In This Issue:
               [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Submitted/nonfiction
               [bksvol-discuss] FW: Wish Lists for the week of  01/09/2012
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: FW: Wish Lists for the week of  01/09/2
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
               [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DA
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: question about renewing membership.
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: question about renewing membership.
               [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Denise Wagner" <denisecwagner@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:44:54 -0500

Hi all,
I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me needing a title page. The note indicated it should be on page 7. It does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is: Is there a particular order in which the Front matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise

------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:15:43 -0800

Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first
title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title,
author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page only contains
the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I assume
that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.
On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20
point font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title
page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a
blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of
your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is
very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable
on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came back
to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It
does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where
Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise



------------------------------

From: "Denise Wagner" <denisecwagner@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:36:20 -0500

Thank you Mayrie!
Yes, that does help. That helps me to know what to look for. I did have a couple of pages with completely unintelligible garbage (one had just “fb”, or something like it). I did look in my hardcopy of the book to try to figure out what was scanned, but I must have either confused myself (known to happen *grin*) or I skipped it intending to come back to it later and then forgot.

In any case, now I know what to be on the alert for.

Thank you again!
Denise

From: Mayrie ReNae
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:15 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher only. Generally, the second title page only contains the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten. I assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank. On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point font. Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages. It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text. This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me needing a title page. The note indicated it should be on page 7. It does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is: Is there a particular order in which the Front matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise

------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:40:36 -0800

HI Denise,

You're very welcome.  Would that all confusions/problems were that easy to
solve!

Happy proofreading!

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:36 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Thank you Mayrie!

Yes, that does help.  That helps me to know what to look for.  I did have a
couple of pages with completely unintelligible garbage (one had just "fb",
or something like it).  I did look in my hardcopy of the book to try to
figure out what was scanned, but I must have either confused myself (known
to happen *grin*) or I skipped it intending to come back to it later and
then forgot.

In any case, now I know what to be on the alert for.

Thank you again!
Denise

From: Mayrie ReNae <mailto:mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:15 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first
title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title,
author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page only contains
the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I assume
that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.
On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20
point font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title
page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a
blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of
your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is
very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable
on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie



 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came back
to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It
does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where
Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:27:31 -0600
From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me.  I've run into a lot of books
that have the title only on the first page, or the title and author.
Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several times
and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the
title, author and publisher on it.  Which one should I treat as the
title page? Sometimes this page even occurs after the copyright page.
I've been treating the one with title, author and publisher on it as the
title page.
Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent
layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the
first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains
title, author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page
only contains the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I
assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7
is blank.  On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and
enlarge it to 20 point font.  Then type the author and below that the
publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual
title page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication,
maybe a blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of
the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title
page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable
text.  This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy
fonts are desirable on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Denise Wagner
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
*To:* bksvol-discuss
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position

Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came
back to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on
page 7.  It does already have a title page on page 10 right before the
page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front
matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want
to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:49:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles?
I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then.  Saves my indecisive
nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure
it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...
Valerie


________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me.  I've run into a lot of books that
have the title only on the first page, or the title and author. Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher on it. Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page even occurs
after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with title, author and
publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher only. Generally, the second title page only contains the title of
the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten. I assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank. On that
page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point
font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title page
containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank
page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages. It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text. This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title
pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




________________________________
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me
needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It does
already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One
begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise


------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:52:05 -0800

Hi Judy,

I treat the page with title, author, and publisher on it as the title page.
But because I'm slightly neurotic, I bold and enlarge all instances of the
title of the book before the actual text of the book begins.  Maybe that's
overkill, and might confuse.  But I thought I was covering my butt and being
more thorough this way.

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judy s.
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:28 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me.  I've run into a lot of books that
have the title only on the first page, or the title and author.  Then,
within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then
finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author
and publisher on it.  Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes
this page even occurs after the copyright page. I've been treating the one
with title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts?
grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:

Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first
title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title,
author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page only contains
the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I assume
that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.
On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20
point font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title
page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a
blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of
your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is
very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable
on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie



 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came back
to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It
does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where
Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:02:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

We are both the same neurotic, deranged perfectionists, Mayrie! same intent on
message delivered minutes apart.  LOL
Valerie


________________________________
From: Mayrie ReNae <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:52:05 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Hi Judy,

I treat the page with title, author, and publisher on it as  the title page.
But because I'm slightly neurotic, I bold and enlarge all  instances of the
title of the book before the actual text of the book  begins.  Maybe that's
overkill, and might confuse. But I thought I was covering my butt and being
more thorough this way.

Mayrie


------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:08:45 -0800

Hi Valerie!

Oh, I'm so glad I'm not alone in my potential overbolding and enlarging.  I
don't think we're hurting anything, and say we should just rock on!

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:50 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter
titles?  I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then.  Saves my
indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title
page.  I figure it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...

Valerie

 _____

From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me.  I've run into a lot of books that
have the title only on the first page, or the title and author.  Then,
within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then
finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author
and publisher on it.  Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes
this page even occurs after the copyright page. I've been treating the one
with title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts?
grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:

Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first
title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title,
author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page only contains
the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I assume
that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.
On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20
point font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title
page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a
blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of
your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is
very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable
on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie



 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came back
to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It
does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where
Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise




------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:09:23 -0800

Hi Valerie,

All I have to say is:

BRILLIANT MINDS!

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:03 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


We are both the same neurotic, deranged perfectionists, Mayrie!  same intent
on message delivered minutes apart.  LOL

Valerie


 _____

From: Mayrie ReNae <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:52:05 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Hi Judy,

I treat the page with title, author, and publisher on it as the title page.
But because I'm slightly neurotic, I bold and enlarge all instances of the
title of the book before the actual text of the book begins.  Maybe that's
overkill, and might confuse.  But I thought I was covering my butt and being
more thorough this way.

Mayrie



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:25:19 -0800
From: misha <mishatronics@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

The actual problem in regard to this question has been cleared up.
Nonetheless I feel compelled to put in my few cents worth.

The "Real Title Page" almost always is right before the copyright page
(but not absolutely always).  Many times the title and author's name on
this page are in very large and elaborate lettering so OCR makes a hash
of it.  I've even seen books with the title page spread over two facing
pages.  I've seen as many as three pages with the title on them, the
first page of the book, usually just the title, but sometimes the title
and author, then blank pages or review blurbs or lists of other books by
the author, then finally the "Real Title Page" with the title, author
and publisher (though not necessarily in that order), then the copyright
page, followed by blank pages or dedications or acknowledgements and so
on, then another page with just the book title (or infrequently title
and author), and finally the actual text of the book.

In the past, I have bolded and 20 pointed all title pages, but lately
I've been doing 20 point bold only for the "Real Title Page."

I'm sure that is more than anyone wanted to actually read, but I'm
sitting here hoping my new scanner will arrive while I eat lunch and
probably like nervous gabbling only in the form of typing email.

Misha

On 1/11/2012 12:09 PM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Valerie,
All I have to say is:
BRILLIANT MINDS!
Mayrie

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Valerie Maples
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:03 PM
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

We are both the same neurotic, deranged perfectionists, Mayrie!  same
intent on message delivered minutes apart.  LOL
Valerie

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Mayrie ReNae <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Sent:* Wed, January 11, 2012 1:52:05 PM
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Judy,
I treat the page with title, author, and publisher on it as the title
page.  But because I'm slightly neurotic, I bold and enlarge all
instances of the title of the book before the actual text of the book
begins.  Maybe that's overkill, and might confuse.  But I thought I
was covering my butt and being more thorough this way.
Mayrie


------------------------------

From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:44:06 -0500

I always keep the title page of course, but I either keep or delete the ones with only the title on them depending on how the preliminary page numbering works out. Since I always scan the back cover, and/or inside flaps, (if it's a hardcover), I often have an extra page or two over what the Roman page numbers say, if the book has them, so if I have a page with only the title on it in the Roman section, I generally delete that. However, I'm scanning a book now, (and a few others recently), where there is one of those pages with only the title on page Arabic 1, with a blank page 2, and the first chapter on page 3. I do not delete those pages of course.
Evan

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Valerie Maples
 To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:49 PM
 Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles? I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then. Saves my indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...

 Valerie



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
 Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me. I've run into a lot of books that have the title only on the first page, or the title and author. Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher on it. Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page even occurs after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts? grin.

 Judy s.

 Mayrie ReNae wrote:
   Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher only. Generally, the second title page only contains the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten. I assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank. On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point font. Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages. It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text. This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

   Hope some of that ramble helps!

   Mayrie





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
   Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
   To: bksvol-discuss
   Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


   Hi all,

I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me needing a title page. The note indicated it should be on page 7. It does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is: Is there a particular order in which the Front matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

   Thanks,
   Denise

------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:45:53 -0800

Oh Mike,

You have a new scanner on its way?  How exciting!  What did you get?

Curious minds want to know!

Or was that "Inquiring Minds Want To Know". To quote a really cheesy
magazine.  Can we call The Inquirer a magazine?

Mayrie



-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of misha
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:25 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

The actual problem in regard to this question has been cleared up.
Nonetheless I feel compelled to put in my few cents worth.

The "Real Title Page" almost always is right before the copyright page (but
not absolutely always).  Many times the title and author's name on this page
are in very large and elaborate lettering so OCR makes a hash of it.  I've
even seen books with the title page spread over two facing pages.  I've seen
as many as three pages with the title on them, the first page of the book,
usually just the title, but sometimes the title and author, then blank pages
or review blurbs or lists of other books by the author, then finally the
"Real Title Page" with the title, author and publisher (though not
necessarily in that order), then the copyright page, followed by blank pages
or dedications or acknowledgements and so on, then another page with just
the book title (or infrequently title and author), and finally the actual
text of the book.

In the past, I have bolded and 20 pointed all title pages, but lately I've
been doing 20 point bold only for the "Real Title Page."

I'm sure that is more than anyone wanted to actually read, but I'm sitting
here hoping my new scanner will arrive while I eat lunch and probably like
nervous gabbling only in the form of typing email.

Misha

On 1/11/2012 12:09 PM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Valerie,
All I have to say is:
BRILLIANT MINDS!
Mayrie

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
*From:* bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Valerie
Maples
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:03 PM
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

We are both the same neurotic, deranged perfectionists, Mayrie!  same
intent on message delivered minutes apart.  LOL Valerie

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
*From:* Mayrie ReNae <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Sent:* Wed, January 11, 2012 1:52:05 PM
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Judy,
I treat the page with title, author, and publisher on it as the title
page.  But because I'm slightly neurotic, I bold and enlarge all
instances of the title of the book before the actual text of the book
begins.  Maybe that's overkill, and might confuse.  But I thought I
was covering my butt and being more thorough this way.
Mayrie

To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line.  To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.


------------------------------

From: "Deborah Murray" <blinkeeblink@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Submitted/nonfiction
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:22:15 -0500

Hi all,

I've just submitted for proofing "Pacifism As Pathology: Reflections on the
Role of Armed Struggle in North America" by Ward Churchill.

It's been read w/headers stripped, page numbers/chapter titles present,
text/headings/footnotes formatted. 193 pages.

Description:
"This extraordinarily important book cuts to the heart of one of the central
reasons movements to bring about social and environmental justice always
fail.  The fundamental question here is: is violence ever an acceptable tool
to help bring about social change? This is probably the most important
question of our time, yet so often discussions around it fall into clichés
and magical thinking: that somehow if we are merely good and nice enough
people, the state will stop using its violence to exploit us all.  Would
that this were true. "-Derrick Jensen, author ofEndgame,from the
introduction.  Pacifism, the ideology of nonviolent political resistance,
has been the norm among mainstream North American progressive groups for
decades.  But to what end? Ward Churchill challenges the pacifist movement’s
heralded victories-Gandhi in India, 1960s antiwar activists, even Martin
Luther King’s civil rights movement-suggesting that their success was in
spite of, rather than because of, their nonviolent tactics. Pacifism as
Pathology was written as a response not only to Churchill’s frustration with
his own activist experience, but also to a debate raging in the activist and
academic communities.  He argues that pacifism is in many ways
counterrevolutionary; that it defends the status quo, and doesn’t lead to
social change.  In these times of upheaval and global protest, this is a
vital and extremely relevant book.

Deborah



------------------------------

From: Alisa Moore <alisam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:42:09 -0800
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] FW: Wish Lists for the week of  01/09/2012



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

I used to do that, but recently when I checked the manual I read that titles need only to be 16 point Bold (and not caps) and subtitles 14point Bold and not c aps, and that is what I' e been doing on this book. I think I asked Scott, but can't remember. Am I wrong? I'm not going to go back correct what I've done on this book so far, but I can go back to 20point Bold (and caps?) and 16 for subtitles as I continue and on future books if that's what we should still be doing.
Cindy



________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles? I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then. Saves my indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...
Valerie



________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question
for me.  I've run into a lot of books that have the title only on the
first page, or the title and author.  Then, within the next several
pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page
of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher
on it.  Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page
even occurs after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with
title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent
layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title
page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books
have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher
only.  Generally, the second title page only contains the title of the
book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the
title page that you have on page ten.  I assume that at this point,
before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.  On that page,
just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point
font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright
page is on the flipside of the actual title page containing title,
author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are
often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank page, and possibly a
page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to
reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan
clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is very very common
as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title
pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




________________________________
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise
Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it
came back to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be
on page 7.  It does already have a title page on page 10 right before
the page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the
Front matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just
want to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:48:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Not trying to muddy the waters, Cindy, but the email I read from Scott only said
titles did not get converted to all caps.  The navigational sizes are all
bolded, and as follows:
Titles in 20 pt bold
Sections in 18 pt. bold
Chapters in 16 pt. bold
Subdivisions in chapters 14 pt and bold
Body of text in 12 point regular unless altered in the print edition
I typed them each as we would; not sure if my webmail will retain their
characteristics.
Valerie


Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples




________________________________
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 4:40:38 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


I used to do that, but recently when I checked the manual I read that titles
need only to be 16 point Bold (and not caps) and subtitles 14point Bold and not
c aps, and that is what I' e been doing on this book. I think I asked Scott,
but can't remember. Am I wrong? I'm not going to go back correct what I've done on this book so far, but I can go back to 20point Bold (and caps?) and 16 for subtitles as I continue and on future books if that's what we should still be
doing.
Cindy




________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles? I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then. Saves my indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure
it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...
Valerie



________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me. I've run into a lot of books that have the title only on the first page, or the title and author. Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher on it. Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page even occurs
after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with title, author and
publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher only. Generally, the second title page only contains the title of
the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten. I assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank. On that
page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point
font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title page
containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank
page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages. It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text. This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title
pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




________________________________
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me
needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It does
already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One
begins.

So, the question is: Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:00:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

In the poor etiquette of replying to my own messages, I forgot to mention the blank line before and after any level of navigation, page break, or page number.
The tool eliminates the lines, but it must somehow serve as a trigger that a
command is coming as otherwise sometimes these are run into text of book in my experience. Especially page numbers, which can lead to mis-pagination if they
are not recognized.
Valerie

Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples




________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 4:48:02 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Not trying to muddy the waters, Cindy, but the email I read from Scott only said
titles did not get converted to all caps.  The navigational sizes are all
bolded, and as follows:

Titles in 20 pt bold
Sections in 18 pt. bold
Chapters in 16 pt. bold
Subdivisions in chapters 14 pt and bold
Body of text in 12 point regular unless altered in the print edition
I typed them each as we would; not sure if my webmail will retain their
characteristics.
Valerie


Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples




________________________________
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 4:40:38 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


I used to do that, but recently when I checked the manual I read that titles
need only to be 16 point Bold (and not caps) and subtitles 14point Bold and not
c aps, and that is what I' e been doing on this book. I think I asked Scott,
but can't remember. Am I wrong? I'm not going to go back correct what I've done on this book so far, but I can go back to 20point Bold (and caps?) and 16 for subtitles as I continue and on future books if that's what we should still be
doing.
Cindy




________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles? I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then. Saves my indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure
it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...
Valerie



________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me. I've run into a lot of books that have the title only on the first page, or the title and author. Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher on it. Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page even occurs
after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with title, author and
publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher only. Generally, the second title page only contains the title of
the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten. I assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank. On that
page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point
font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title page
containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank
page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages. It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable text. This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title
pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




________________________________
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question. I submitted a book I proofread and it came back to me
needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page 7.  It does
already have a title page on page 10 right before the page where Chapter One
begins.

So, the question is: Is there a particular order in which the Front matter
needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to make
sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:31:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: FW: Wish Lists for the week of  01/09/2012

Thanks, Alsa



________________________________
From: Alisa Moore <alisam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:42 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] FW: Wish Lists for the week of  01/09/2012






------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:41:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Oh. o.k., Thanks. So the titles in 20-point bold refer only to the titles of the books. it was chapter titles I had asked about. Glad to know that sections are 18-pont Bold; in earlier books I had put those in 20-point as well. I'll save this on a word file as a reminder. My memory gets worse and worse
CIndy



________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:48 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Not trying to muddy the waters, Cindy, but the email I read from Scott only said titles did not get converted to all caps. The navigational sizes are all bolded, and as follows:


Titles
in 20 pt bold
Sections in 18 pt. bold
Chapters in 16 pt. bold
Subdivisions in chapters 14 pt and bold
Body of text in 12
point regular unless altered in the print edition

I typed them each as we would; not sure if my webmail will retain their characteristics.

Valerie


Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples





________________________________
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 4:40:38 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


I used to do that, but recently when I checked the manual I read that titles need only to be 16 point Bold (and not caps) and subtitles 14point Bold and not c aps, and that is what I' e been doing on this book. I think I asked Scott, but can't remember. Am I wrong? I'm not going to go back correct what I've done on this book so far, but I can go back to 20point Bold (and caps?) and 16 for subtitles as I continue and on future books if that's what we should still be doing.
Cindy




________________________________
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position


Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter titles? I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then. Saves my indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title page. I figure it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...
Valerie



________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question
for me.  I've run into a lot of books that have the title only on the
first page, or the title and author.  Then, within the next several
pages they may repeat that several times and then finally have a page
of what is the 'real' title page with the title, author and publisher
on it.  Which one should I treat as the title page? Sometimes this page
even occurs after the copyright page. I've been treating the one with
title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent
layouts? grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title
page that staff is talking about is the first title page (many books
have two). The first title page contains title, author, and publisher
only.  Generally, the second title page only contains the title of the
book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the
title page that you have on page ten.  I assume that at this point,
before you've made any changes, that page 7 is blank.  On that page,
just type the title of the book, bold it, and enlarge it to 20 point
font.  Then type the author and below that the publisher.

In most cases, the copyright
page is on the flipside of the actual title page containing title,
author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are
often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a blank page, and possibly a
page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to
reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page of your book didn't scan
clearly enough to give you recognizable text.  This is very very common
as publishers seem to think that fancy fonts are desirable on title
pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




________________________________
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise
Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position


Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it
came back to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be
on page 7.  It does already have a title page on page 10 right before
the page where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the
Front matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just
want to make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:18:07 -0600
From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Navigation

I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the
thread on font sizes and the title page. smile.
What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in the
front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and we
make the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I don't
use the DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently, as I use
the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title
page in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using
the DAISY navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point
even with multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for the
navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on to
navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:41:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga

It is my experience since there are no other navigation points in between in the instances (hundreds) I have done, it is a non-issue. Would probably be an issue in Ombudsmen books or whatever it is called when there are multiple books in a volume, but those books have neve not had mutiple title pages, in my experience.
Valerie

Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples




________________________________
From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 7:18:07 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Navigation

I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the thread on
font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in the front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and we make the title 20
points in size on every one of those pages? I don't use the DAISY navigation
myself when reading a book currently, as I use the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title page in regards to
navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using the DAISY navigation, and
it's easy to zip through from point to point even with multiple 20 point font
title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense? I'm not being contrarian (honest! grin). I'm just trying to understand what works best for the navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on to navigate through a book.
smile.

Judy s.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:06:54 -0500
From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga

If the title page and only the title page had the highest navigation
point I don't really see the point in having that navigation point at
all. The title page only tells you the title of the book and if you are
reading the book you probably already know that. I don't do a lot of
navigation around in Daisy books either, but if I did I would probably
be uninterested in navigating to the title page anyway. It would not
interfere with anything for the title page to be a navigation point. I
just would not have much reason to go there. It would come in handy to
have that level of navigation available for other things too, so that
more levels are freed up for other possible navigation levels.
On 1/11/2012 8:18 PM, Judy s. wrote:
I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the
thread on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in
the front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and
we make the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I
don't use the DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently,
as I use the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title
page in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using
the DAISY navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point
even with multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for the
navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on
to navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:14:54 -0600
From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga

Thanks Valerie, that's helpful! I'm still not sure it's a non-issue.
smile.  I've done hundreds of books too, where I've had multiple title
pages and only fonted one page with the 20 point font.  I'm curious to
know how well the navigation works with multiple title pages vs one
title page from the perspective of our blind compatriots as well. smile.
Judy s.

Valerie Maples wrote:
It is my experience since there are no other navigation points in
between in the instances (hundreds) I have done, it is a non-issue.
 Would probably be an issue in Ombudsmen books or whatever it is
called when there are multiple books in a volume, but those books have
neve not had mutiple title pages, in my experience.

Valerie

Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples


------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Sent:* Wed, January 11, 2012 7:18:07 PM
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY
Navigation

I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the
thread on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in
the front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and
we make the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I
don't use the DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently,
as I use the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title
page in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using
the DAISY navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point
even with multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for the
navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on
to navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.



------------------------------

From: "Bob W" <rwiley45@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:30:53 -0600

Hi Judy.
Good question.
If the title pages are consecutive, then there's no need to navigate to each one, so why not make the first one 20 points and the rest twelve?

Just my opinion,
Bob
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Judy s.
 To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Navigation


I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the thread on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in the front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and we make the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I don't use the DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently, as I use the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title page in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using the DAISY navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point even with multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense? I'm not being contrarian (honest! grin). I'm just trying to understand what works best for the navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on to navigate through a book. smile.

 Judy s.


------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:34:56 -0800

Hi Judy,

You can just zip really quickly from heading to heading, or navigation point
to navigation point with a daisy reader.  It doesn't slow things down to
have more things enlarged and bolded.  But I sure see your point about
looking for the title page containing title, author, and publisher.  But it
is quick to navigate from one navigational point to the next on most daisy
readers.  It's the matter of one press of a button to go from one point to
the next most of the time.

Does that help?

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judy s.
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:18 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY
Navigation


I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the thread
on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in the
front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and we make
the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I don't use the
DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently, as I use the XML
file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title page
in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using the DAISY
navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point even with
multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for the
navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on to
navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:48:05 -0500
From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga

Let me add to my earlier message by saying that even though I would not
mind the title page sharing the same navigation level as other
navigation points in the book, I would probably not want more than one
title page to have it. Like I said, even though it would not interfere I
would have not much interest in navigating to the title page, but if I
had to navigate past several title pages before I could go on to other
navigation points I was interested in then that could become really
annoying.
On 1/11/2012 9:14 PM, Judy s. wrote:
Thanks Valerie, that's helpful! I'm still not sure it's a non-issue.
smile.  I've done hundreds of books too, where I've had multiple title
pages and only fonted one page with the 20 point font.  I'm curious to
know how well the navigation works with multiple title pages vs one
title page from the perspective of our blind compatriots as well. smile.

Judy s.

Valerie Maples wrote:
It is my experience since there are no other navigation points in
between in the instances (hundreds) I have done, it is a non-issue.
 Would probably be an issue in Ombudsmen books or whatever it is
called when there are multiple books in a volume, but those books
have neve not had mutiple title pages, in my experience.
Valerie

Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples


*From:* Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Wed, January 11, 2012 7:18:07 PM
*Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and
DAISY Navigation

I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the
thread on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in
the front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and
we make the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I
don't use the DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently,
as I use the XML file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct
title page in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're
using the DAISY navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point
to point even with multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for
the navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely
on to navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.



------------------------------

From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY Naviga
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:52:03 -0800

Hi Judy,

I just downloaded a book that has multiple instances of the title enlarged
and bolded. Each shows up as a separate navigational point.  But I don't
find navigating between points slowed down by this as for me, whether using
the xml file, or my audio device for reading daisy, I advance from heading
to heading simply by pressing a button once.  But if only one instance of
the title is preferred and that instance is (sensibly) the instance where it
appears with the author's name and the name of the publisher, then only
bolding and enlarging one of the instances of the title of a book in the
preliminary pages makes sense.  But for me, I'd rather have too many
instances of the title noted than too few.  Just my opinion though.

Mayrie


 _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judy s.
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 6:15 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY
Navigation


Thanks Valerie, that's helpful! I'm still not sure it's a non-issue. smile.
I've done hundreds of books too, where I've had multiple title pages and
only fonted one page with the 20 point font.  I'm curious to know how well
the navigation works with multiple title pages vs one title page from the
perspective of our blind compatriots as well. smile.

Judy s.

Valerie Maples wrote:

It is my experience since there are no other navigation points in between in
the instances (hundreds) I have done, it is a non-issue.  Would probably be
an issue in Ombudsmen books or whatever it is called when there are multiple
books in a volume, but those books have neve not had mutiple title pages, in
my experience.

Valerie


Keep up with Nichole's recovery:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples



 _____

From: Judy s.  <mailto:cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 7:18:07 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question on Multiple Title Pages and DAISY
Navigation

I've got a new question now, after reading the various answers in the thread
on font sizes and the title page. smile.

What happens with DAISY navigation when there are multiple pages in the
front of a book where the title appears as a title-type page, and we make
the title 20 points in size on every one of those pages? I don't use the
DAISY navigation myself when reading a book currently, as I use the XML
file.

But, it would seem to me, though, that making the title 20 points in
multiple places kind of defeats the purpose of having a distinct title page
in regards to navigation? Or doesn't it matter when you're using the DAISY
navigation, and it's easy to zip through from point to point even with
multiple 20 point font title pages?

Is what I'm trying to ask making any sense?  I'm not being contrarian
(honest! grin).  I'm just trying to understand what works best for the
navigation for you guys who can't use the visual cues that I rely on to
navigate through a book. smile.

Judy s.





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:27:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: question about renewing membership.

Yes, if you proofread or scan books you can earn credits for another year. Are you registered as a volunteer? I found out that I have no more credits left, so I can't give you any, but perhaps someone on this list has some extra they can ask Alisa to give to you in the meantime
Cindy



________________________________
From: Amber <amberanddottie@xxxxxxx>
To: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: question about renewing membership.



Hi my membership has ended,  I was wondering
if, I can approve books, to get the credits for another year?
thanks,  amber



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:34:34 -0500
From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: question about renewing membership.

I think there is a credit bank that Alisa can dip into, but that bank is
bound to be depleted pretty fast if no one earns any more credits to
donate to it, so it would be very good if Amber could do some volunteering.
On 1/11/2012 10:27 PM, Cindy wrote:
Yes, if you proofread or scan books you can earn credits for another
year. Are you registered as a volunteer?
 I found out that I have no more credits left, so I can't give you
any, but perhaps someone on this list has some extra they can ask
Alisa to give to you in the meantime
Cindy

    *From:* Amber <amberanddottie@xxxxxxx>
    *To:* Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
    *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2012 7:18 PM
    *Subject:* question about renewing membership.

    Hi my membership has ended,  I was wondering if, I can approve
    books, to get the credits for another year?  thanks,  amber





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:42:56 -0600
From: Debby Franson <the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Valerie!

I do the same.

Debby

At 01:49 PM 1/11/2012, Valerie Maples wrote
Okay, am I the only oddball who bolds and 20 points all the pre-matter
titles?  I figure whichever is the real title is covered, then.  Saves my
indecisive nature from stalling interminably on which is the "real" title
page.  I figure it cannot hurt, but maybe that is wishful thinking...

Valerie


From: Judy s. <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, January 11, 2012 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Question: Title page position

Hi Mayrie, this raises a question for me.  I've run into a lot of books
that have the title only on the first page, or the title and
author.  Then, within the next several pages they may repeat that several
times and then finally have a page of what is the 'real' title page with
the title, author and publisher on it.  Which one should I treat as the
title page? Sometimes this page even occurs after the copyright page. I've
been treating the one with title, author and publisher on it as the title page.

Don't you love the publishing industry and how it has consistent layouts?
grin.

Judy s.

Mayrie ReNae wrote:
Hi Denise,

It sounds to me like the title page that staff is talking about is the
first title page (many books have two). The first title page contains
title, author, and publisher only.  Generally, the second title page only
contains the title of the book, and nothing else.

So, I'd say not to move the title page that you have on page ten.  I
assume that at this point, before you've made any changes, that page 7 is
blank.  On that page, just type the title of the book, bold it, and
enlarge it to 20 point font.  Then type the author and below that the
publisher.

In most cases, the copyright page is on the flipside of the actual title
page containing title, author, and publisher.

And after those two pages are often acknowledgements, dedication, maybe a
blank page, and possibly a page containing just the title of the book.

You shouldn't ever need to reorder pages.  It sounds like the title page
of your book didn't scan clearly enough to give you recognizable
text.  This is very very common as publishers seem to think that fancy
fonts are desirable on title pages and OCR chokes on them.

Hope some of that ramble helps!

Mayrie




----------
From:
<mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Denise Wagner
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: bksvol-discuss
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Question: Title page position

Hi all,

I have a simple question.  I submitted a book I proofread and it came
back to me needing a title page.  The note indicated it should be on page
7.  It does already have a title page on page 10 right before the page
where Chapter One begins.

So, the question is:  Is there a particular order in which the Front
matter needs to be in?

I plan to move the title page, of course, to page 7, but I just want to
make sure I understand for future proofreading.

Thanks,
Denise

                                --
                mailto:<the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
--
The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools
pours forth foolishness.
Proverbs 15:2 NKJV

"Teach me, and I will hold my tongue
; Cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
Job 6:24 NKJV



------------------------------

End of bksvol-discuss Digest V9 #11
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