Hi Mayrie and everyone!Well stated. I was thinking of pictures when responding to Doug's post, but, I, like you also want to know what kind of chart it is, whether it's a picture or anything that will make what it is that is being described instantly clear to the reader. They make it clear in NLS books, so we should do the same.
I also want to know whether text is in a box. That means it's important. Debby At 05:17 PM 11/21/2011, Mayrie ReNae wrote
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m = "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml">HI Doug,I agree with you. To further the discussion, using the word "image" to preface the description of anything that couldn't be represented was also shortsighted upon the part of the creator of these instructions. I want to know if the description that I am reading is the description of a picture, a chart, if a chart, what kind of chart, (pie, bar graph, table, etc) or whatever. "image" just doesn't do it. If the word "image" seems necessary to later extract what the tools cannot now extract to use with the poet tool, then more words might be necessary. For example: if the word "image must be used, [Image: Picture of a frog on a rock.] We need to know what's there, as you say, Doug.Mayrie ----------From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug MaplesSent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:13 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Qustion on manual"Simpler and shorter is better" may be somebody's consensus, but definitely not from the point of the readers. Having done so many books for children with image descriptions and captions, there is no way that you could leave off the "image" or "caption" and expect the reader to have a clue what they are actually reading. Anyone who is not a Bookshare volunteer will have no idea what the words in the quotes means. How can they? If you are not told something is an image or a caption, how are you to have any idea what you are reading? I just don't get it.Whether you're site reading, using a screen reader or braille, it leads to mass confusion. I have to say that I had not seen the finished product of a book processed through Benetech's Poet tool, but I certainly hope that there is some way to let readers know that the words they run into are not part of the text from the book. Descriptions should be easily understood to be a picture description. Likewise, picture captions should be just as easily understood to be a caption.I think if we (Bookshare volunteers) keep this discussion up, we will understand what the text we run into after we have finished really is. But we have to remember we are not scanning and proofreading and using different notations for various parts of a book just for our understanding. What we put down on the page is going to be read by hundreds or thousands of Bookshare subscribers. How can we expect them to know what they are reading or listening to if we don't give them a cue with a simple word like "image" or "caption"?Poet will do whatever it does, but until then I think we have to let the readers know just what it is they are reading.Possibly just one man's opinion, ? DougFrom: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Scott RainsSent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:49 AM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Qustion on manualThis discussion is good for purposes of clarification. The consensus has been that simpler and shorter is better thus avoidance of "image" after the opening square bracket.At the same time, keep in mind that bracketed captions or image descriptions inside the text will fade away. As we adopt the image description methodology behind Benetech's Poet tool this material will no longer disrupt the book text. It will be embedded in the .xml. That way the DAISY reader can be set to show or hide the added material. Depending on the manufacturer these third party products may or may not alert the reader with a phrase like, "Start caption."Scott Rains BookshareTo: "<mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <<mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Qustion on manualHi, makes perfect sense to me. Call the thing what it is. If the caption is a caption, why not just say "picture caption" to get rid of confusion? Regards, Kim Friedman.-----Original Message-----From: <mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug MaplesSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:02 PM To: <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: 'Scott Rains' Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Qustion on manualI totally agree with Valerie. When I see something inside of brackets with the image: at the beginning, I would just assume that whatever is inside of quotes has something to do with the image description. I would never know that was a caption. I firmly believe that the caption should have caption: before it. Otherwise, how are you going to know?? DougFrom: <mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie MaplesSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:58 PM To: <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Qustion on manualVivian mentioned she had found in the volunteer manual to simply enclose a caption in quotes, as mentioned here:<https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/4.8+Y.+Format+for+image+description+tags#4.8Y.Formatforimagedescriptiontags-formattouseforimagedescriptionswithcaptions>https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/4.8+Y.+Format+for+image+description+tags#4.8Y.Formatforimagedescriptiontags-formattouseforimagedescriptionswithcaptions The example given is:[image: A young boy in mid-air as he dives off a pier into a small lake. Already in the water is an older man, standing and smiling."Having fun on hot days."] But I have always done it like this:[image: A young boy in mid-air as he dives off a pier into a small lake. Already in the water is an older man, standing and smiling.caption: Having fun on hot days.]I can develop new habits, but to me, the other is more clear, espcially if the caption is a quote already in quotation marks. Is there a reason for the change?Valerie Keep up with Nichole's recovery:<http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples>http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/nicholemaples
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