[bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

  • From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:58:00 -0700

Okay, that sounds as though it might be very useful in perhaps easing the work 
and improving the quality of the books up here.

Thanks.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gerald Hovas 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:36 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings


  NIMAS is a new standard for k-12 textbooks which calls for more than page 
numbers to be handled.  I haven't read the spec, just read what was in the 
newsletter, but from what that said, the tools will have to support additional 
content tagging.  At the very least, I would expect it to require recognizing 
and tagging of chapter headings, and probably section headings as well since 
we're talking textbooks.  Once NIMAS is supported, DAISY books would support 
navigation by chapters, and probably sections.

   

  I don't know any more than this because Bookshare hasn't given any details, 
just a few brief statements in newsletters and a message or two to the list.  
They didn't even mention the Stripper by name, just referred to having to 
upgrade some of the tools.  Since the Stripper is responsible for tagging of 
page numbers, though, it would definitely be on the list of upgrades for NIMAS 
support.  Also, from what I remember, one of the jobs advertised on the 
Benetech website mentioned something about modifying a tool to support chapter 
headings.  That has to be referring to the Stripper as well.

   

  HTH

   

  Gerald


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
  Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:08 PM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

   

  How will NIMAS support help with the problems we have been talking about here?

   

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Gerald Hovas 

    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

    Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 4:03 PM

    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

     

    The tools, including the Stripper, will need updating in order to support 
NIMAS, and NIMAS support is definitely on Bookshare's list of things to do.  
The problem is that tools like the Stripper are complex, and Bookshare has been 
waiting until the major upgrade before attempting to tackle fixing it in order 
to prevent having to rework it twice.

     

    Gerald

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jill O'Connell
    Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 4:57 PM
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

     

    The problem with that, however, is that for one thing as I'm sure you've 
noticed, scanners often don't see the headers in the same way on each page for 
some reason; also I as a braille reader don't want to hear the headers on every 
page; I can't speak for the DAISY readers. That's why I remove the headers when 
scanning and try to remember to put stars or some other symbol above chapter 
headings that occur at the top of the page. I hope this problem is high on 
Bookshare's "fix-it" list. 

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Evan Reese 

      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

      Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:17 AM

      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

       

      Ok, now I'm more confused than ever.  If I strip the headings manually, 
then why does the stripper need something to strip.  If I don't strip them, 
then I need to make them consistent so the stripper can strip them correctly?  
But if I do strip them, then I need to put a fake one at the beginning of each 
chapter so the chapter heading doesn't get stripped?  Do I have this all 
correct?  Wouldn't it be a lot simpler just to not strip anything?  Aren't we 
supposed - ideally anyhow - to be replicating the original book, in which there 
is in fact a heading at the top of each page, except on those which begin a 
chapter.  This makes a lot of extra work and complexity and a reduction of 
quality for those who can't keep straight all the persnickety demands of the 
Bookshare software, or who don't have the time to go through and fix everything 
just right so that other readers can have a decent reading experience.  I would 
say, just drop the whole stripping thing and make life simpler for everyone and 
then we won't have these quality problems.

       

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Gerald Hovas 

        To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

        Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:18 PM

        Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings

         

        Donna,

         

          1.. Yes, put a blank line before and after the page number when the 
page number is in the header as well as a blank line at the bottom of the page. 
 I'm not sure if the blank line is necessary between the page number and the 
text, but I can say that putting one after the header does work well.  If you 
leave the blank lines at the top and bottom of the pages off, then some odd 
things will happen to the page numbers when the HTML file is created.  The page 
numbers end up as part of a paragraph instead of on a separate line. 
         

        Example of how the page should look...

         

        [Page Break]

         

        95

         

        .

        .

        .

        text

        .

        .

        .

         

        [Page Break]

         

          2.. Yes, put a blank line between the chapter heading and the first 
line of text.  Again, I don't know that this is necessary, but it does work 
well, and some people have said that it is necessary. 
         

        3. Yes, you need to give the Stripper something to strip other than the 
chapter heading or the chapter heading will be stripped.  The easiest thing to 
do when page numbers are normally at the top of pages except on pages where a 
chapter begins is to move the page number from the bottom of the page to the 
top.  If page numbers are always at the bottom of the page, then place a false 
header above the chapter heading.  Using the title works well, and it won't 
look as odd if the Stripper fails to strip it for some odd reason.  It helps to 
strip all of the real headers manually since its easier to strip them yourself 
than to insure that they are consistent so that the Stripper will remove them 
all, but if you do leave them in, then just follow the pattern of the headers 
and put whatever header would normally appear on the top of that page above the 
chapter heading.

         

        Examples of how pages should look...

         

        [Page Break]

         

        95

         

        Chapter Seven

         

        .

        .

        .

        text

        .

        .

        .

         

        [Page Break]

         

        [Page Break]

         

        The Firm

         

        Chapter Seven

         

        .

        .

        .

        text

        .

        .

        .

         

        95

         

        [Page Break]

         

        Or if the page would normally contain the author's name instead of the 
title...

         

        [Page Break]

         

        John Grisham

         

        Chapter Seven

         

        .

        .

        .

        text

        .

        .

        .

         

        [Page Break]

         

        I can't say that these are the only ways to do it, but I've had 
excellent results with these approaches.

         

        HTH

         

        Gerald

         


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Smith
        Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:41 PM
        To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

         

        Hi all.

         

        I hesitate to ask this question, but I can't find the answer on any of 
the official or unofficial sites giving tips to scanners.

         

        Did we ever determine absolutely what should be done to protect page 
numbers and chapter headings?  What I want to know is:

         

          1.. At the top of each page, do I need to put a blank line before 
and/or after the page number? 
          2.. For chapter numbers/titles that appear at the top of the page, do 
I put a blank line before and/or after it? 
          3.. Is it necessary to have something at the top of the page for the 
BookShare stripper to strip? 
         

        I spend a good bit of time cleaning up each scan regarding page 
numbers, chapter headings and stripping out unwanted headers.  I'm trying to do 
it in such a way that it will result in the best book in the finished product.

         

        I really, really hope that an answer has been found to this question 
and that I'm not opening up the can of worms we've had before about the 
different perceptions of what might work.  <smile>

         

        Thanks.

         

        Peace and Hope,

         

        Donna


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