[bksvol-discuss] Re: Perceptual Difficulties, WAS: Re: Re: Table Of Contents

  • From: "Monica Willyard" <rhyami@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 02:47:06 -0500

Dyslexia runs in my family. You can definitely be blind and dyslexic.
(smile) My maternal aunt, uncle, mom, brother, and I all have dyslexia and
auditory processing disorder. Being blind and unable to process verbal
directions correctly presents some interesting challenges, and lots of
blackmail material for my dad. (grin) Dyslexia is rather like having low
vision in that there is a continuum of impairment from mild to severe. My
impairment only shows up when typing or in handwriting, rarely with Braille.
In my brain scans, Braille seems to activate a separate part of the brain, a
channel that works very well for me. I am the speller in my family, and
that's because I can read Braille. On the other end, my aunt and uncle can't
read at all and can only write their names. 

To me, the auditory processing disorder is much worse and causes more
frustration. After all, a spellchecker helps me cope nicely with the
dyslexia. Conversations, especially verbal directions, don't come with
rewind buttons or translators. I'm not deaf, so people aren't very
understanding when I need them to repeat things more slowly or write them
down. I've learned to start writing notes the second I even think someone
might be saying something important.

That's why I like Bookshare so much. I can actually read my books, not
listen to them. I don't have to worry about who is narrating a book or which
books might be chosen for WebBraille. There are some NLS readers I
understand very well. There are others that I can't seem to process at all.
I can hear normally, but they might as well be speaking in Greek for all I
can understand. I check out the narrator before even bothering to look at
the book's description. So there are some NLS books I cannot read, even
though I could order them right now. If I see a book I want that's read by
someone I can't understand well, I scan it. With Bookshare, I get to choose
how I read, what voice I use, or whether I want to use Braille for something
I'm trying to learn. 


Monica Willyard
"The best way to predict the future is to create it." -- Peter Drucker

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:35 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Perceptual Difficulties, WAS: Re: Re: Table Of
Contents

One thing I learned when I started volunteering in the learning, is that
dyslexics are very often extremely smart. The boy I was asked to help was in
6th grade. Because he was smart, he'd found ways to do very well in school
working around and hiding his dyslexia. It ws discovered until he was in 6th
grade. I really don't know how one overcomes it. All I did was read with him
I don't know enough to know how that helped, but apparently it did--or maybe
he  continued getting help in 7th and later grades. It did make me worry,
though, when my 3-year-old daughter would reverse letters. Both my daughters
were reading early (just the result of our reading books together), but
because I had become aware of the switching  of letters in words in
dyslexia, I began to wonder if she had--but then I realiZed, or someone told
me, it was just her age and was devlopmental--which ewas the truth as it
turned out.
Cindy

Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
books-being-scanned list available at sites below



Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List

Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List


--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Debby Franson <the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Debby Franson <the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Perceptual Difficulties, WAS: Re: Re: Table  Of
Contents
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 3:16 PM
> Hi everyone!
> 
> Kim, thanks for sharing this rather personal information
> with us.  I like 
> your thought about being treated as individuals.
> 
> I have a blind e-friend who is dyslexic, so a person
> doesn't have to have 
> sight to have this reading difficulty, since the
> information is processed 
> in the brain the same way whether the input is print
> getting in through the 
> eyes or braille input through the fingers.
> 
> It's sad that my friend is somewhat ashamed of her
> dyslexia.  When she told 
> me, she said, "I usually don't tell anyone, but I have
> dyslexia.".  There 
> is nothing to be ashamed of.
> 
> True, Kim, a person is smart with differing perceptual
> difficulties, so 
> it's sad that your dad was thought to be slow.  They
> didn't know nearly as 
> much about the brain in your father's generation as they do
> now.  No one 
> heard of ADD or ADHD back then either.
> 
> Debby
> 
> At 02:20 AM 11/5/2009, Kim Friedman wrote
> >Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic
> and slightly dyslexic.
> >Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading
> was a slow process
> >for him. Unfortunately for his generation, teachers
> would think he was slow
> >and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my
> mother described my
> >sister's condition was to say that it had something to
> do with feedback in
> >her brain. She has problems with fractions, and she has
> a hard time
> >pronouncing certain words. She is now getting stuff
> from my regional
> >library, i.e., Braille Institute of America because, as
> she tells me, she
> >can comprehend some books better if she hears them
> being read to her rather
> >than looking at the book in front of her. I look
> forward to the time when
> >people are taught like they're human beings, rather
> than using a
> >cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be crammed
> with information any
> >old way as if we were like cars made on an assembly
> line. Regards, Kim.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> >To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >
> >Hi, Evan!
> >
> >Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary
> focus on learning
> >disabilities, visual presentation is important in
> building skills. Typically
> >speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves
> to a table of contents
> >the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by
> a couple of spaces or
> >a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually
> some distance away
> >from it on the right margin of the page is the actual
> page number. By making
> >the three elements of a single line distinct, you teach
> children how to scan
> >in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a vertical
> pattern as well.
> >When there is too much information into smaller space
> children with learning
> >disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be
> able to retrieve the
> >details. It can make it more difficult for an adult
> with dyslexia because
> >they can then have a greater chance of confusing the
> numbers with letters.
> >There are also a number of visual learning disabilities
> were spatial
> >relationships are important. By controlling how the
> information is formatted
> >you improve the odds of a child successfully learning
> how to not only
> >differentiate but digest the information that is
> present.
> >
> >It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions
> of computer searching
> >to kids who have these learning disabilities since they
> often have problems
> >but spelling correctly or with number order. It is also
> an additional skill
> >layered on top of another skill at you are trying to
> create, which can be
> >difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I
> can tell you as an
> >adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close
> together, I take about
> >five times as long to sort the information. Ideally
> there should be a much
> >greater distance and the page numbers should online in
> a column, but
> >separation of any type is better than the same thing
> used to indicate a
> >change of words.
> >
> >I am trying to learn as much as I can about why
> presentation matters and how
> >it is effected by those who listen as well as those who
> read in Braille, and
> >I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully
> and constantly
> >reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so
> much of Bookshare's
> >current efforts are directed toward their educational
> grant, I think we do
> >ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these
> kids as best we can.
> >If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual
> presentation in effort to
> >"standardize", we may remove the ability of some
> students to develop
> >independent literacy skills outside of software. Until
> our society has moved
> >to a format where all text is available electronically,
> books, newspapers,
> >and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach
> students to develop
> >techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise
> as long as meaningful
> >information can still be derived for the target
> populations. Individuals
> >with visual impairments have had alternate formats for
> decades, but it
> >really is in its infancy for students with more severe
> physical disabilities
> >or learning disabilities.
> >
> >In truth, many texts would be better handled if they
> could be formatted both
> >ways, instead of a unified format that is then
> translated. Since that is
> >completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we
> can have is
> >considerate dialogues trying to find common ground.
> Thank you for allowing
> >me to participate in these discussions.
> >
> >I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive
> me if there are any
> >speech recognition errors in this long missive. I
> promise you it is better
> >than anything that I could have pecked out and taken an
> hour to correct.
> >Wink.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >Valerie
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> > > Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> > >
> > > Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying.
> You are completely
> > > incoherent. Just kidding.
> > >
> > > Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's
> word that it is
> > > difficult to read a page number in a TOC with
> only a space between it
> > > and the title, although I will admit that I don't
> understand why this
> > > should be so. If
> >you
> > > are reading the title of something, you would
> just see the page number
> >after
> > > it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for
> information, not for
> > > argumentation. If it is difficult to read a
> number with only a space
> >between
> > > it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to
> read words with only
> > > a single space between them? As I said, I am
> looking for insight, not
> >doubting
> > > the word of those who actually read with sight.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help you can give to further my
> knowledge on this.
> > >
> > > Evan
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> > >
> > >
> > > >I agree with Valerie.  It is a torture
> to figure out tables of
> > > >contents visually with just the single
> space.  I'm perfectly happy
> > > >with an
> >ellipsis
> > > >instead of the space, as an idea.  I
> can't see any way that trying to
> > > >figuour out how many periods to put in to
> make the right margin on
> > > >each line, as is done with a printed book,
> will make sense or be
> > > >anything but
> >a
> > > >nightmare to do if you're blind.  Having
> an ellipsis in makes it
> >perfectly
> > > >readable for me visually.
> > > >
> > > > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some
> major dental surgery
> > > > today
> >and
> > > > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an
> elephant down.  So I'm a
> > > > bit loopy! grin.
> > > >
> > > > Judy s.
> > > >
> > > > Valerie Maples wrote:
> > > >> Ideally you should have enough periods
> so the right margin is even
> > > >> for visual scanning of page numbers
> as  a list, but an ellipsis
> > > >> would be better than a single
> space.  that is outright torture to find
> >anything.
> > > >>
> > > >> Valerie
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie
> ReNae wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi Debby,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'd like more commentary from our
> sighted print disabled readers
> > > >>> to
> >know
> > > >>> whether this will be helpful before
> I change my practises.  I'm
> > > >>> happy
> >to
> > > >>> change, as you are, but not willing
> to make a permanent change
> > > >>> until
> >or
> > > >>> unless it is commented upon by more
> than one person.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else
> who is print disabled, but
> > > >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Mayrie
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Debby
> >Franson
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009
> 8:58 AM
> > > >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table
> Of Contents
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi Mayrie!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Should I insert elipses in the table
> of contents in "Rebel With a
> > > >>> Cause"?
> > > >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Debby
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae
> wrote
> > > >>>> Hi Melissa,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> That's a great idea!  Let's
> see if it would work for folks like
> > > >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie
> was the one requesting a change.
> > > >>>> If it would work, I don't see
> how it would go against anything
> > > >>>> bookshare has
> > > >>> ever said.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Mayrie
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Melissa
> >Smith
> > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009
> 5:07 AM
> > > >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table
> Of Contents
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I've been thinking about
> Valerye's concerns about the table of
> > > >>>> contents.
> > > >>>> I got to thinking about how
> Braille books have a series of dots
> >between
> > > >>>> the chapter title and page
> number. So, I was wondering if
> > > >>>> inserting
> >an
> > > >>>> ellipses between the chapter
> title and page number would be an
> > > >>>> appropriate
> > > >>> solution.
> > > >>>> An ellipses will be recognized
> and kept by bookshare's tools, and
> >will
> > > >>>> give some separation between
> chapter title and page number for
> > > >>>> those that need that. It
> wouldn't be spoken by most screen
> > > >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere
> with anybody's listening pleasure.
> > > >>>> Finally, since Braille readers
> are used to the series of dots
> > > >>>> between chapter title and page
> number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> > > >>>> to them
> >either.
> > > >>>> So, do you think this would be
> acceptable and not violate any
> >bookshare
> > > >>>> rules?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Melissa
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
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> > > >>> Enjoy what you have rather than
> desiring what you don't have. Just
> > > >>> dreaming about nice things is
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> > > >>> wind.--Ecclesiastes
> > > >>> 6:9 NLT
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> --
> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't
> have. Just dreaming 
> about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the 
> wind.--Ecclesiastes 6:9 NLT
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