[bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Reading Braille, WAS: Re: Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: ...
- From: Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:15:05 EST
No, I was not started out on jumbo Braille, but because I am diabetic and
because that was the cause of my loss of vision I remember that it was
mentioned as a possibility for me, but it was not followed up on. At the
rehabilitation agency, though, I was tested for sensitivity in my fingers and I
fell
within normal range, but that was in 1989 and things could have changed by
now. In fact, I was recently having a problem using a very small button on a
speaker I bought and I wondered if maybe I was developing some neuropathy
in my fingers. Nevertheless, it is the norm that adults have a difficult time
learning Braille anyway. After I left the rehab center I took the Hadley
course and got to the point of reading a page of Braille in about forty-five
minutes. Since a page of Braille is equal to about a third of a print page it
is obvious that that rate was unacceptable. Practice was the main thing I
needed and I proceeded to practice, but when the practice is so agonizingly
slow and frustrating it tends to lead to procrastination and I drifted away
from it. I have read the material published by the NFB pointing out that
recording devices are no substitute for Braille and I do not really disagree,
but I ended up falling back on a reliance on recordings and recording devices
anyway, and now, of course, text to speech technology. I do retain enough
knowledge of Braille, though, that it is useful for an occasional label.
"I have no country to fight for; my country is
the earth, and I am a citizen of the world." Eugene V. Debs
The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
_
table with 2 columns and 6 rows
Subj:
[bksvol-discuss] OT: Reading Braille, WAS: Re: Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re:
Table Of Contents
Date:
11/6/2009 12:31:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:
the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxx
Reply-to:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent from the Internet
(Details)
table end
Hi Roger and everyone!
I have heard adults who are newly blinded say that braille is such a
challenge because their fingers aren't sensitive enough to really feel the
dots well enough to distinguish one similar letter from another.
When you were learning braille, did they start you out on jumbo braille? I
have heard that that is sometimes the procedure. I have never had sight.
Debby
At 12:33 PM 11/5/2009, Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx wrote
>I don't know if the dyslexia had anything to do with the frustration of
>learning Braille. As far as I know I have never had a problem with
>dyslexia, but when I became blind I was quite frustrated with Braille. I
>never did learn it well enough for it to be useful for much more than an
>occasional label.
>
>
>"I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a
>citizen of the world." Eugene V. Debs
>
> The Militant:
> <http://wwww.themilitant.com>http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press:
> <http://www.pathfinderpress.com>http://www.pathfinderpress.com
>Granma International:
><http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html>http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> _
>
>table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>Subj:
>[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
>Date:
>11/5/2009 11:39:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
>From:
>vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Reply-to:
>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To:
>bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent from the Internet
>(Details)
>table end
>
>Funny that you ask that, Bob. The answer is sometimes. They are now
>differentiating what dyslexia actually is, so the true answer is
>probably soon to be no when they reclassify some people previously
>labeled dyslexic as other severe learning disability (SLD). Mine is
>an organizational, retrieval problem, but when I am fatigued, I
>display the transposition errors most commonly associated with dyslexia.
>
>I had a friend who was dyslexia and then later lost his vision due to
>RP and he was too frustrated with braille and instead had things read
>to him to minimize his frustration. Although he had successfully
>learned to accommodate his dyslexia while sighted, it was overwhelming
>to him after he lost his sight.
>
>Blind form birth I cannot speak to, but I do know you can have an SLD
>with perceptual/retrieval or translation issues.
>
>HTH!
>Valerie
>
>On 11 05, 2009, at 7:11 AM, Bob wrote:
>
> > Okay, this is off topic, but I gotta ask:
> >
> > Can a blind person be dyslexic? Then does reading Braille become a
> > problem?
> >
> > Or, as I suspect, dyslexia is a problem in the visual section of the
> > brain which cuts most of us out altogether.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > boB
> >
> > "We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe that all
> > of us will live on in the future we make,"
> > Senator Edward M. Kennedy
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:20 AM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >
> >
> >> Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic and slightly
> >> dyslexic.
> >> Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading was a slow
> >> process
> >> for him. Unfortunately for his generation, teachers would think he
> >> was slow
> >> and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my mother described
> >> my
> >> sister's condition was to say that it had something to do with
> >> feedback in
> >> her brain. She has problems with fractions, and she has a hard time
> >> pronouncing certain words. She is now getting stuff from my regional
> >> library, i.e., Braille Institute of America because, as she tells
> >> me, she
> >> can comprehend some books better if she hears them being read to
> >> her rather
> >> than looking at the book in front of her. I look forward to the
> >> time when
> >> people are taught like they're human beings, rather than using a
> >> cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be crammed with
> >> information any
> >> old way as if we were like cars made on an assembly line. Regards,
> >> Kim.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie
> >> Maples
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>
> >> Hi, Evan!
> >>
> >> Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary focus on
> >> learning
> >> disabilities, visual presentation is important in building skills.
> >> Typically
> >> speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves to a table of
> >> contents
> >> the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by a couple of
> >> spaces or
> >> a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually some
> >> distance away
> >> from it on the right margin of the page is the actual page number.
> >> By making
> >> the three elements of a single line distinct, you teach children
> >> how to scan
> >> in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a vertical pattern as
> >> well.
> >> When there is too much information into smaller space children with
> >> learning
> >> disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be able to
> >> retrieve the
> >> details. It can make it more difficult for an adult with dyslexia
> >> because
> >> they can then have a greater chance of confusing the numbers with
> >> letters.
> >> There are also a number of visual learning disabilities were spatial
> >> relationships are important. By controlling how the information is
> >> formatted
> >> you improve the odds of a child successfully learning how to not only
> >> differentiate but digest the information that is present.
> >>
> >> It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions of computer
> >> searching
> >> to kids who have these learning disabilities since they often have
> >> problems
> >> but spelling correctly or with number order. It is also an
> >> additional skill
> >> layered on top of another skill at you are trying to create, which
> >> can be
> >> difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I can tell you
> >> as an
> >> adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close together, I
> >> take about
> >> five times as long to sort the information. Ideally there should be
> >> a much
> >> greater distance and the page numbers should online in a column, but
> >> separation of any type is better than the same thing used to
> >> indicate a
> >> change of words.
> >>
> >> I am trying to learn as much as I can about why presentation
> >> matters and how
> >> it is effected by those who listen as well as those who read in
> >> Braille, and
> >> I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully and constantly
> >> reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so much of
> >> Bookshare's
> >> current efforts are directed toward their educational grant, I
> >> think we do
> >> ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these kids as best
> >> we can.
> >> If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual presentation in
> >> effort to
> >> "standardize", we may remove the ability of some students to develop
> >> independent literacy skills outside of software. Until our society
> >> has moved
> >> to a format where all text is available electronically, books,
> >> newspapers,
> >> and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach students to
> >> develop
> >> techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise as long as
> >> meaningful
> >> information can still be derived for the target populations.
> >> Individuals
> >> with visual impairments have had alternate formats for decades, but
> >> it
> >> really is in its infancy for students with more severe physical
> >> disabilities
> >> or learning disabilities.
> >>
> >> In truth, many texts would be better handled if they could be
> >> formatted both
> >> ways, instead of a unified format that is then translated. Since
> >> that is
> >> completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we can have is
> >> considerate dialogues trying to find common ground. Thank you for
> >> allowing
> >> me to participate in these discussions.
> >>
> >> I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive me if there
> >> are any
> >> speech recognition errors in this long missive. I promise you it is
> >> better
> >> than anything that I could have pecked out and taken an hour to
> >> correct.
> >> Wink.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Valerie
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >>> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>>
> >>> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely
> >>> incoherent. Just kidding.
> >>>
> >>> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is
> >>> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between
> >>> it
> >>> and the title, although I will admit that I don't understand why
> >>> this
> >>> should be so. If
> >> you
> >>> are reading the title of something, you would just see the page
> >>> number
> >> after
> >>> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for information, not
> >>> for
> >>> argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number with only a space
> >> between
> >>> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to read words with
> >>> only
> >>> a single space between them? As I said, I am looking for insight,
> >>> not
> >> doubting
> >>> the word of those who actually read with sight.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.
> >>>
> >>> Evan
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of
> >>> >contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy
> >>> >with an
> >> ellipsis
> >>> >instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that
> >>> trying to
> >>> >figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on
> >>> >each line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be
> >>> >anything but
> >> a
> >>> >nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it
> >> perfectly
> >>> >readable for me visually.
> >>> >
> >>> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery
> >>> > today
> >> and
> >>> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So
> >>> I'm a
> >>> > bit loopy! grin.
> >>> >
> >>> > Judy s.
> >>> >
> >>> > Valerie Maples wrote:
> >>> >> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is
> >>> even
> >>> >> for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis
> >>> >> would be better than a single space. that is outright torture
> >>> to find
> >> anything.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Valerie
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Hi Debby,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers
> >>> >>> to
> >> know
> >>> >>> whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm
> >>> >>> happy
> >> to
> >>> >>> change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change
> >>> >>> until
> >> or
> >>> >>> unless it is commented upon by more than one person.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but
> >>> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Mayrie
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby
> >> Franson
> >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
> >>> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Hi Mayrie!
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel
> >>> With a
> >>> >>> Cause"?
> >>> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Debby
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
> >>> >>>> Hi Melissa,
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like
> >>> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a
> >>> change.
> >>> >>>> If it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything
> >>> >>>> bookshare has
> >>> >>> ever said.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Mayrie
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> >>> Melissa
> >> Smith
> >>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
> >>> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of
> >>> >>>> contents.
> >>> >>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots
> >> between
> >>> >>>> the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if
> >>> >>>> inserting
> >> an
> >>> >>>> ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an
> >>> >>>> appropriate
> >>> >>> solution.
> >>> >>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools,
> >>> and
> >> will
> >>> >>>> give some separation between chapter title and page number for
> >>> >>>> those that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen
> >>> >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening
> >>> pleasure.
> >>> >>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots
> >>> >>>> between chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> >>> >>>> to them
> >> either.
> >>> >>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any
> >> bookshare
> >>> >>>> rules?
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Melissa
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
> >>> >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To
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> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> >>>> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.48/2479 - Release
> >>> Date:
> >>> >>>> 11/03/09 13:38:00
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> --
> >>> >>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have.
> >>> Just
> >>> >>> dreaming about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing
> >>> the
> >>> >>> wind.--Ecclesiastes
> >>> >>> 6:9 NLT
> >>> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> >> signature
> >> database 4574 (20091104) __________
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>No virus found in this incoming message.
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>01:37:00
--
Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just dreaming
about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the
wind.--Ecclesiastes 6:9 NLT
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- » [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Reading Braille, WAS: Re: Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: ... - Rogerbailey81
