[bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight

  • From: "Katie Star" <kaitlyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:18:48 -0700

Hi Tiff, 

Except for seeing in my dreams you are just like me. I have to say it's hard
to be sure if I can see in my dreams or not because I always picture things
around me. 



Katie Hill
Kaitlyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

        You, who are thirsty, come hither: if, by chance, the fountain
fails,

        The goddess has, by degrees, prepared the everlasting waters.

translation by fulcanelli of an inscription on the

statue of maitre plerre, which stood on the parvis of

Notre-Dame-de-Paris until its removal in 1748


-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tiffany H. Jessen
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:26 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight

I agree. I began to lose my sight when I was 11. It went up and down until I

was 16. Now I don't even have light perception, but in my dreams I can 
always see. In fact, I even see the people I met after blindness and have 
never seen before. Obviously I have no way to know if it's anywhere near 
right, but it's the same way I picture them when I am awake. I don't think 
about imagining it either. As I walk around my brain automatically pictures 
things and tells me things as if I'm actually seeing. Obviously I'm not 
psychic so it's not always perfect, but I do have good spatial orientation 
for directions, locating things, judging sizes, and distances. Not having to

do with dreams, but probably also related to my having sight in the past, in

school I was much much much stronger with the maths and physical sciences 
rather than English and history. This is contrary to the usual blind 
student.
What can I say.. I'm weird.
Tiff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Marshall" <geom4@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight


> Hi Cindy:
> Just a note on this subject:
> I lost my vision at 39 years old, my dreams usially are visual, so I think

> it is the way the brain works.
> George R. Marshall
> geom4@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 2:15 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight
>
>
>> Interesting, Sheri. So spending some time, like a few
>> days or week with contacts or a tight blindfold or
>> eyes shut, wouldn't give a sighted person the same
>> experience, or at least something of an idea? I think
>> there was an actor who did that to prepare for a role.
>>
>>
>> I do find it difficult to imagine dreams without
>> visuals, although I have a good imagination. But
>> Louise and Allison have given me  explanations that I
>> begin to understand--sensations of where one is, like,
>> as Louise said, where she used to live, and people's
>> voices, and perhaps the sensation that someone is
>> present. I think I can begin to understand. Perhaps
>> it's a little like deja vu--when we have the feeling,
>> even though awake  and seeing something not related,
>> what we've been in a place or a situation before.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> --- Sheri Wells-Jensen <swellsj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Cindy,
>>>
>>> When ever I teach a class of creative writers,
>>> there's always one student
>>> who come sup to me after class to ask something
>>> like: "What's it really like
>>> to be you."  I used to try to answer this question.
>>> then, I realized it was
>>> impossible.  Now, I ask the student to explain what
>>> it's like to be him/her
>>> first. Before I can contrast my experience, I really
>>> have to know what it's
>>> really like experientially to perceive objects at a
>>> distance and use that
>>> experience as information about the environment and
>>> act on that information
>>> without conscious thought.  I can't isolate any
>>> 'real' difference between
>>> sighted people's experience and my own
>>> unless I know what two things I'm contrasting.  I
>>> don't think you can ask
>>> someone who had significant sight and lost it either
>>> since having had sight
>>> would effect how you process information.
>>> Maybe, there is some wayof perceiving reality that
>>> all blind people share
>>> that is fundamentally different than sighted
>>> experience, but the older I
>>> get, the more I doubt that.
>>> If there really were some truly interesting
>>> fundamental difference, we'd
>>> have a lot more trouble getting along with you'all
>>> than we usually do!
>>> *smile*
>>> My students, by the way, give up the task of
>>> explaining *their* reality
>>> pretty quickly!  they're looking for something
>>> exotic.  I always feel just a
>>> little sad to have to disappoint them!
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>>
>>> Sheri W-J
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:21 PM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
>>> sight
>>>
>>>
>>> > Thanks, Allison, for the info.
>>> >
>>> > Yes, I would not like to feel pain in my dreams. I
>>> > don't think I feel in my dreams--except
>>> occasionally
>>> > emotions, which last for a while when I wake up.
>>> And
>>> > occasionally smells and sounds, but I think they
>>> enter
>>> > my dreams from the outside.
>>> >
>>> > Cindy
>>> >
>>> > --- Allison Mervis <allisonfm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I dream entirely in sensation and sound. It's
>>> like I
>>> >> don't have to see in my
>>> >> dreams in order to know where I'm going. I can
>>> also
>>> >> feel pain while
>>> >> dreaming, and a lot of people I've talked to
>>> can't.
>>> >> Sometimes I wish I
>>> >> couldn't.
>>> >> Allison
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> From: "mickey" <micka@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:51 PM
>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
>>> >> sight
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >I dream more in sounds, Cindy. When I was little
>>> >> and could see more light,
>>> >> >sometimes I'd see things like flame, but
>>> whatever I
>>> >> saw had to be bright.
>>> >> >But I've heard people say something to me, and
>>> it's
>>> >> made me wake up. I also
>>> >> >dream some in sensation.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some research has been done regarding sleep of
>>> >> blind people. Some of us
>>> >> > move our fingers in REM sleep, as you would
>>> your
>>> >> eyes.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Mickey Prahin
>>> >> > micka@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> > MSN: mickeylundgren@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> > Phone: (614) 670-4011
>>> >> > Check out Bob's new CD at
>>> >> > http://www.boballentrio.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> > From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
>>> >> <bookshare-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:57 PM
>>> >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
>>> sight
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> This article relates, subject-wise, to one
>>> that I
>>> >> >> forwarded a while back--vision being given to
>>> a
>>> >> man
>>> >> >> who was blind fo forty years, having lost his
>>> >> sight at
>>> >> >> age three.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The article mentions dreams. I've wondered,
>>> but
>>> >> have
>>> >> >> refrained from asking, what the dreams of
>>> blind
>>> >> people
>>> >> >> are like. Does the brain create pictures and
>>> >> shapes
>>> >> >> from the various sensations you have during
>>> the
>>> >> day? I
>>> >> >> hope you don't mind my asking.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Cindy
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --- Louise <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> From: "Louise" <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> To: "Louise Gourdoux"
>>> >> <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> Subject: Fw:  Blind sight
>>> >> >>> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:05:00 -0500
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The Guardian (UK)
>>> >> >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Blind sight
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> By Sue Blackmore
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Restoring vision to the blind sounds like a
>>> >> miracle
>>> >> >>> - but for the patients
>>> >> >>> in question, it can seem like a nightmare.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> What is it like for the blind to see again?
>>> You
>>> >> >>> might think it would be a
>>> >> >>> delight, with the previously handicapped
>>> person
>>> >> >>> opening their eyes to a
>>> >> >>> wondrous world of colour, depth, movement and
>>> >> faces,
>>> >> >>> and a new and better
>>> >> >>> life. But that (if you are a normal seeing
>>> >> person)
>>> >> >>> is probably because you
>>> >> >>> think of vision as an easy task for the brain
>>> -
>>> >> >>> after all, it seems so easy.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> This is far from the truth. In fact, vision
>>> >> takes
>>> >> >>> vast brain power and a lot
>>> >> >>> of it is learned, so the newly-sighted have a
>>> >> tough
>>> >> >>> job on. And the few
>>> >> >>> previously documented cases are mostly sad
>>> >> stories
>>> >> >>> of fear, depression, and
>>> >> >>> even suicide.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> This week I was lucky enough to be invited,
>>> >> along
>>> >> >>> with a small group of
>>> >> >>> vision scientists, to meet a blind man made
>>> to
>>> >> see -
>>> >> >>> this time by the
>>> >> >>> wonders of corneal stem cell transplantation.
>>> >> Mike
>>> >> >>> May, a Californian who
>>> >> >>> became blind at the age of three, had his
>>> sight
>>> >> >>> restored in one eye over
>>> >> >>> forty years later. One of the organisers was
>>> >> Richard
>>> >> >>> Gregory, who did
>>> >> >>> classic research in the 1960s with patient,
>>> SB.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Our questions ranged from dreams and
>>> imagination
>>> >> to
>>> >> >>> how to cope with traffic
>>> >> >>> and sports, but among the most fascinating
>>> >> things we
>>> >> >>> learned was how
>>> >> >>> overwhelming the visual world is for someone
>>> who
>>> >> is
>>> >> >>> not used to it, and how
>>> >> >>> much sighted people take for granted their
>>> >> ability
>>> >> >>> to ignore it. For Mike,
>>> >> >>> looking out of his high up hotel window means
>>> >> seeing
>>> >> >>> the teeming cars as
>>> >> >>> full size cars, while knowing that somehow he
>>> >> ought
>>> >> >>> to see them as smaller.
>>> >> >>> He described the difference from his previous
>>> >> world
>>> >> >>> in which he knew the
>>> >> >>> cars were there but was not bombarded with
>>> >> details
>>> >> >>> of colour, shape, number,
>>> >> >>> and direction.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Amazingly, Mike was an expert skier while
>>> blind,
>>> >> >>> following a guide who
>>> >> >>> called out instructions. He described to us
>>> the
>>> >> joy
>>> >> >>> of seeing mountains
>>> >> >>> (when he could work out that was what he was
>>> >> seeing)
>>> >> >>> and the confusion of
>>> >> >>> skiing with sight. Trees were dark and
>>> obviously
>>> >> to
>>> >> >>> be avoided, but shadows
>>> >> >>> were dark too, and hence very scary. It made
>>> me
>>> >> >>> reflect on how valuable is
>>> >> >>> our ability not to be distracted by shadows.
>>> >> Indeed
>>> >> >>> he finds skiing and
>>> >> >>> crossing the road more frightening with
>>> vision
>>> >> than
>>> >> >>> he used to do without.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> He talked about synaesthesia too. While many
>>> >> people
>>> >> >>> see numbers or sounds as
>>> >> >>> having their own colour, for Mike it was
>>> Braille
>>> >> >>> letters that were
>>> >> >>> coloured - and, as he put it "people thought
>>> I
>>> >> was
>>> >> >>> nuts". Most strange for
>>> >> >>> him are faces which seem to have so much more
>>> >> detail
>>> >> >>> than he had expected
>>> >> >>> from touching them all his life - but whether
>>> he
>>> >> >>> sees and recognises them in
>>> >> >>> anything like the way normally sighted people
>>> >> do, we
>>> >> >>> could not tell.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I realised how very difficult it is to ask
>>> >> >>> meaningful questions and
>>> >> >>> understand the answers when you are talking
>>> to
>>> >> >>> someone whose experience is
>>> >> >>> so different from your own - and this is, of
>>> >> course,
>>> >> >>> what makes Mike so
>>> >> >>> special. But should I go further? Perhaps I
>>> >> should
>>> >> >>> not be asking what it's
>>> >> >>> like for the blind to see, but what it's like
>>> >> for
>>> >> >>> anyone to see. For
>>> >> >>> scientists are far from agreement over this,
>>> and
>>> >> I
>>> >> >>> have agonised about the
>>> >> >>> nature of conscious vision for years.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> So look around you now. What is it like to
>>> see?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sue_blackmore/2006/05/what_is_it_like_fo
>>> >> >>> r_the_blind.html
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> -- 
>>> >> >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> >> >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> >> >>> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database:
>>> 268.6.0/342 -
>>> >> >>> Release Date: 5/17/2006
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
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