[bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!

  • From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:51:17 -0500

Hey Guido,
    I've been following this thread and am slightly confused as well.
    Here's what I have found and what I think is being discussed.

When looking at the HTML file of books, a page number appears on the same line 
as text like the following.

the sun shown brightly down upon 51 the meadow

instead of something like
the sun shown brightly down upon

51

the meadow

So I believe the suggestion is to put blank lines at the top of the page and 
bottom before and/or after the page number so the HTML file is generated 
correctly. I however have avoided doing this in the hopes that someday the 
automated tool can be corrected.

So the final suggestion I believe is to look at a file that you have worked on 
that does not have extra blank lines to see how the HTML copy renders page 
numbers.

HTH,
Jake



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Guido Corona 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 10:38 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!



  Sorry.  Now I am the one who is completely confused.    Download what book.  
I have submitted about 500 titles.  Which one appears to be flawed.  If you 
find some,  please let me know.  I will be delighted to fix it/them.    If in 
the process I uncover a stripper bug,  I will submit a formal PTR to Bookshare. 

  Regards, 
    


  Guido Dante Corona
  IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  Research Division,
  Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able



        "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
        Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        06/07/2005 05:39 PM Please respond to
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       To <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
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              Subject [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused! 

              

       



  As I said in an earlier message, the page number is included in the paragraph 
following the page number and not on a line by itself.  In case it's not 
obvious, the reader has to determine from the context of the surrounding text 
whether or not a number is a page number since it does not appear on a line by 
itself. 
    
  Perhaps you should download one of the books you've just validated and take a 
look for yourself. 
    
  -----Original Message-----
  From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Guido Corona
  Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:50 PM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!


  OK,  what formatting problem does top-left or bottom-left justification of 
the page number in the RTF/TXT submission cause in the resulting HTML file? 
  Please do let me know.  If this were the fact,  the editing/submission 
guidelines need to be amended accordingly,  or the Daisy conversion engine 
needs to be fixed. 


  Thanks, 

  Guido 


  Guido Dante Corona
  IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  Research Division,
  Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able


        "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
        Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        06/07/2005 03:13 PM 
              Please respond to
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              Subject [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused! 


              

       




  I happen to know whether or not there was a paragraph marker above the header 
in the books I've worked on.  There was, and I have seen no evidence that this 
causes problems.  I have seen evidence, though,  that not putting a blank line 
at the top and bottom of the page causes a formatting problem in the HTML file. 
   
  -----Original Message-----
  From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Guido Corona
  Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 8:16 AM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!


  Correct,  but unless you place the header on the top line of the page or the 
very bottom line of the page,  you will have no idea if there are hidden 
paragraph marks prior or after it.  So,  make your life easy and use top and 
bottom. 
  Have done this for a spell. 

  G. 


  Guido Dante Corona
  IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  Research Division,
  Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able

        "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
        Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        06/07/2005 12:20 AM 
              Please respond to
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  Actually, the validation instructions sent out by Marissa upon becoming a 
volunteer says that the headers must be the first paragraph on the page and the 
footer must be the last paragraph on the page.  They do not say that the header 
must be on the first line and the footer the last. 

  Also, page numbers in the HTML file will not be formatted properly if a blank 
line is not placed above the header and below the footer.  For some reason, the 
page number is included at the beginning of a paragraph instead of on a 
separate line if those blank lines are omitted. 

  -----Original Message-----
  From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Guido Corona
  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:35 PM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!


  There should be at least one blank line below the chapter header group. 

  On other pages,  the page number should be on the very top or very bottom 
line of the page.  If on the top line,  the page number should be followed by 
one (or more), it does not matter) blank lines.  If on the bottom line,  the 
page number should be preceeded by one or more blank lines. 

  Guido 


  Guido Dante Corona
  IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  Research Division,
  Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able
        Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx> 
        Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        06/06/2005 08:24 PM 
              Please respond to
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  Uh, Oh. Does this mean that one should put chapter
  titles flush left and on two lines, with a blank line
  between it and the text, no matter what the book does?
  And how many spaces below the page break and page
  number? What happens to a chapter title that is 4
  spaces down from the page break and centered on the
  page, and in a different font from the text. I
  understand that in at least one book I validated the
  chapter titles were still there.  I've been following
  the style of the book, usually. Should I change?

  Cindy


  -- Guido Corona <guidoc@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

  > It is preferable to separate the chapter title on
  > two lines and leave a 
  > blank line below it.  This will overcome a temporary
  > flaw in the stripper, 
  >  but would enable a future smarter version to create
  > appropriate tags.
  > If the chapter title is on the line immediately
  > above body text,  no 
  > future smart stripper is likely to be able to deal
  > with it appropriately.
  > It is important that our work does not jeopardize
  > future Bookshare 
  > implementations.
  > 
  > G.
  > 
  > 
  > Guido Dante Corona
  > IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  > Research Division,
  > Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  > Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  > Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > "Jana Jackson" <jana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
  > Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > 06/06/2005 11:49 AM
  > Please respond to
  > bksvol-discuss
  > 
  > 
  > To
  > <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > cc
  > 
  > Subject
  > [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Hi, Lea!  In addition to Guido's suggestions,
  > because some of us have 
  > found that the over-zealous stripper has eaten our
  > chapter titles, some of 
  > us prefer to leave no blank line between the chapter
  > title and the first 
  > line of text.  Separating the title into two lines
  > also works, though, so 
  > either option is okay.  Take care!
  >  
  > Jana
  >  
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Guido Corona 
  > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 9:54 AM
  > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!
  > 
  > 
  > By chapter header I mean the grand title at the
  > beginning of each chapter, 
  >  which should be kept,  at the top of the page, 
  > followed by at least one 
  > blank line.   
  > You may want two split the chapter header on two
  > consecutive lines.  E.g.: 
  > 
  > 
  > CHAPTER 
  > ONE 
  > 
  > Occurrences of any chapter title in subsequent page
  > headers should be 
  > stripped. 
  > 
  > Guido 
  > 
  > 
  > Guido Dante Corona
  > IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  > Research Division,
  > Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  > Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  > Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Pascha Lea <pascha2u@xxxxxxxxx> 
  > Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  > 06/06/2005 09:13 AM 
  > 
  > Please respond to
  > bksvol-discuss
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > To
  > bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  > cc
  > 
  > Subject
  > [bksvol-discuss] Re: Confused!
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Hi,
  > Thanks for this info, so far. I am currently working
  > on a novel and as I'm over half way through it, I
  > think I may leave the page numbers off on this one.
  > I
  > can certainly see the benefit to having them on a
  > scholarly  text.
  > 
  > By 'chapter header' - do you mean the chapter title
  > that starts the chapter - or the chapter name that
  > appears in the corners of every page on some books?
  > I'm definitely making sure that the first page of
  > each
  > chapter has the chapter number and name before the
  > beginning of that chapter's text, but I've been
  > removing it from the top of every page, as I've been
  > doing with page numbers.
  > 
  > Lea
  > 
  > --- Guido Corona <guidoc@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  > 
  > > Chapter headers are very important.  The lucky
  > thing
  > > is that there are not 
  > > so many of them.
  > > Page numbers would be nice,  but are not as
  > > important, at least for 
  > > novels.
  > > For scholarly materials they are much more
  > > important.
  > > If you put in page numbers,  put them on the very
  > > first line of the page, 
  > > by themselves,  left justified,  then leave a
  > blank
  > > line below.
  > > Or at the very bottom of a page, left justified,
  > by
  > > themselves, preceeded 
  > > by a blank line.
  > > Page numbers will then be included in the Daisy
  > page
  > > tag by the Bookshare 
  > > system.  Although they look as if they have been
  > > stripped,  they will 
  > > still be in the file and referenceable/searchable
  > by
  > > any Daisy reader.
  > > 
  > > Future modifications to the Bookshare system may
  > > create more flexible 
  > > rendering of page numbers.  But policy is, as much
  > > as possible,  to leave 
  > > page numbers intact and normalize their appearance
  > > at the top or bottom of 
  > > pages as described above.
  > > 
  > > Guido
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Guido Dante Corona
  > > IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
  > > Research Division,
  > > Phone:  512. 838. 9735.
  > > Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
  > > Web:  http://www.ibm.com/able
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Pascha Lea <pascha2u@xxxxxxxxx> 
  > > Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > > 06/06/2005 08:44 AM
  > > Please respond to
  > > bksvol-discuss
  > > 
  > > 
  > > To
  > > bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > > cc
  > > 
  > > Subject
  > > [bksvol-discuss] Confused!
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Hi,
  > > I'm relatively new to volunteering at Bookshare,
  > and
  > > I'm only doing 
  > > validation as I don't have a scanner. 
  > > 
  > > I've started getting hard-copies from the local
  > > library when validating in 
  > > order to clean up the many typos/dropped words
  > that
  > > I'm finding with the 
  > > books I'm validating. I'm also only validating
  > > txt/rtf files because I am 
  > > sighted and don't have any text-readers/braille
  > > software.
  > > 
  > > Now - here is my confusion. I was catching up on
  > my
  > > mailing-lists and 
  > > noticed there was several long discussions about
  > > chapter headers, page 
  > > breaks and page numbers. After reading this stuff
  > > I'm afraid I've made a 
  > > horrible mistake in a book or two that I've
  > > validated and submitted. 
  > > 
  > > I've basically been stripping out all chapter
  > > headers, page numbers and - 
  > > *gulp* - page breaks, because that is always how
  > > I've put together scanned 
  > > books in the past for my husband to read (he uses
  > > Jaws and then just opens 
  > > up the books as text files). This was obviously
  > very
  > > ignorant of me. 
  > > 
  > > I'm currently working on a book, which I've gone
  > > back and added the page 
  > > breaks. Do I also need to add the page numbers and
  > > chapter headers? Is 
  > > this an absolute necessity?
  > > 
  > > Help!
  > > 
  > > Lea
  > > Discover Yahoo!
  > > Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing &
  > more.
  > > Check it out!
  > > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >  
  > __________________________________ 
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  > 
  > 
  > 


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