[bksvol-discuss] Re: Books Without Page Numbers

  • From: "Bob" <rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:39:58 -0500

Lori brings up a good point.

I, for one, would be willing to accept books with less than the appropriate percentage of page numbers if they were rated good, not excellent or publisher quality.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Castner" <loralee.castner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:12 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Books Without Page Numbers

I agree in theory that books added to the bookshare collection should have page numbers, but I also have some concerns.

Right now I am validating a fiction book in which very few page numbers scanned. I attempted to add the missing page numbers and thought that I could do so successfully because when there was a blank page at the end of a chapter that page was indicated in the scan. However, at one point when a page number did appear in the text, the numbers I had added were off by one page, and even with a lot of effort I could not find the discrepancy.

So I plan to submit the book without page numbers. This book is a really "good read"; it is fiction; no one will suffer from the lack of page numbers.

So I see two issues; 1) sometimes page numbers simply will not scan and adding page numbers manually will be a lot more work for a submitter, and in many instances, such as what I might call casual fiction page numbers really don't benefit the book that much. Also, in an instance such as the one I described, the proofreader attempting to add the page numbers may not work out; this book had no Table of Contents or any way to enable me to figure out my discrepancy.

Maybe page numbers can be required for certain types of books; textbooks, some types of nonfiction and maybe even bestsellers, but for many lighter reading books isn't it better to have the book in the collection to be enjoyed rather than excluded for lack of page numbers?

Cat Lover Lori

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pavi Mehta" <pavim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Monica Willyard" <rhyami@xxxxxxxxx>; <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Bookshare.org Volunteers" <Volunteers@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; <support@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:50 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Books Without Page Numbers

Hi Monica,

Thanks for this thoughtful email.

We've actually had extensive conversations among the staff regarding
page numbers recently. While it is true that we have not required them
officially, we are looking to change policy on that shortly.

We will be making the announcement soon to the volunteer community that
a book submitted to Bookshare must have page numbers on at least 90% of
its pages in order to be accepted. We will make the necessary edits to
the volunteer manual as well to reflect this. Our reasoning is that
fulfilling this requirement helps ensure that readers are able to
navigate books with greater ease and those who are students and working
on assignments can better keep up with class reading. (And as you
rightly pointed out it makes missing or duplicate pages much easier to
spot for both proofreader as well as admin approving the books).

In terms of approaching Kurzweil for a page number protector, I've ccd
our support team on this email to see if they have any input on that.

In the meantime, if you have any further feedback on the issue of page
numbering or on our intended approach to it, please let us know. It is
great to be refining our policies in this way, and though it may entail
some initial ruffling of feathers I am sure the end result will be
higher quality books for everyone.

All good things,

-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Willyard [mailto:rhyami@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:57 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Bookshare.org Volunteers
Subject: Books Without Page Numbers

I know of something that is being done that's stripping page numbers and
sometimes chapter headings from submitted books as well. Some
mostly not on the list,  have begun using Kurzweil's feature to strip
headers automatically. While it does remove the annoying header at the
of the page, it also removes the page numbers as well. I don't think
this is
being done with any malice or any realization of how difficult
these books can be. It just seems like a handy shortcut. The text of the
books is clean and easy to read. Right now, Bookshare still hasn't
officially required page numbers, so it's a touchy subject. I have
asked two volunteers to use another method and was told that page
are annoying and that the people don't want to hear them while reading.
both cases, there were missing pages, and I had to go and buy the novel
because there was no way to get these people to scan the pages I needed
since their print page numbers and my number of page breaks didn't

This is a very gray area for me. The only solution I've thought of is to
in numbers by hand, but that's a guessing game since there's not a good
to tell what the page number is for the first page of core content. It
be page 1 in some books but is different in other books. It's usually
page 7
in the Harlequin and Steeplehill romances and page 5 in the Berkley
Crime series. Without official backing from Bookshare, I don't feel
comfortable with either rejecting a book with clear text with no page
numbers or continuing to ask that the submitter stop using the Kurzweil
header feature.

I'm a literalist when it comes to Bookshare's instructions, and the
is pretty clear about page breaks being required but page numbers being
optional. This is because some books do not come with page numbers, and
respect that. The manual does ask proofreaders not to remove page
numbers if
present, but it doesn't give any direct guidelines for proofreaders
handling books with the page numbers stripped. It also does not strongly
advise submitters to refrain from using automatic stripping tools that
remove page numbers. I don't think it's right for me to hold a person to
higher standard than what is required by Bookshare. I don't like the
situation though. It makes it much harder to spot missing pages,
pages, and unnumbered pages containing ads or photos in the center of a
book. I know this causes confusion for Carrie as well since she can't
missing pages either.

Hmm. Since they're writing a new version of Kurzweil, maybe we would
better luck with asking them to write a page number protector so that
could strip headers without losing page numbers. Is anyone on the
list or know of someone to approach at Kurzweil where that feature could
requested? Or maybe they could add a "number pages sequentially" feature
where you could mark page 1, and the program could insert actual page
numbers just after each page break until the end of the file. It would
the define operator page numbers feature a step further and could be a
separate menu item so the define operator page number feature would
work as usual. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would make life easier
you have to manually number a 500 page book. What do you all think? Is
worth asking?

Monica Willyard
"The best way to predict the future is to create it." -- Peter Drucker

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of E.
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:03 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] request to submitters

I have recently validated several books all of which had lots of junk
characters, no page numbers whatsoever or both.

If submitters are doing something which removes page numbers along
with running headers and footers please do you best to find out how
to retain the page numbers.

Also please watch out for the following junk characters. For some
reason I am finding more of them in submits lately.
You need punctuation turned on to read the next few junk character
They are
~ ^ tab character * | \

I know it seems these characters can easily be removed. Sometimes
what seems easy is harder than you think in reality so if you can
prevent them from getting into your submits please help out.
You may want to use rank spelling on a page or two of text to find
out how it is scanning.

Thanks for being understanding.


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