Stan, I used a Celestron C102HD (Synta) for several years. It was a good scope. However, last Fall I bought a TV102. There is NO comparison. On an average night with the HD102, I could use maybe 100-150X on Jupiter and Saturn before the image broke down. On the TeleVue, I routinely use 200-250X and the skies where I now live are not as good as Arizona. I also dispute that a 4" refractor is "useless" for deep sky. While I'm not going to chase Seyfert's Sextet with the TV102, many open clusters are outstanding in the scope and brighter nebulosities are very good as well. I have no intention of "dumping" my 14" Dob, but they'll bury me with the TV102. My two cents worth. Steve Bell Former EVAC Member Boise, ID -- See message header for info on list archives or unsubscribing, and please send personal replies to the author, not the list.