[AZ-Observing] Re: Canon Astro Camera
- From: Mike Wiles <mikewilesaz@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: az-observing@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 14:14:28 -0700
My intent in my original comments wasn't intended to be inflammatory, but I
can see in rereading it how it may have come off that way. If so, I do
apologize. All of your points and reasoning may well be valid, but until
we have the camera or someone from Canon to explain their design decisions
it's all uninformed speculation. In this case, it's the worst kind in my
opinion.
As you alluded to, Canon has done us a huge favor. They just spent their
own marketing dollars to tell 50 million or so people that amateur
astronomy is so interesting that they have a camera specificially for it.
When the first response from people inside the hobby is to offer up a
negative opinion with no real basis, it undercuts the efforts of Canon that
I would hope that you support.
It's a guarantee that the announcement of he 60DA will make some people
take a look a astrophotography and amateur astronomy as a pastime. Those
people will be techically savvy enough to search the Internet to find more
information. If their second impression is a negative one because they
read some guy on a mailing list panning the very idea they're
considering...they'll leave the hobby before we ever get them hooked on the
amazing universe that we live in. That seems to me a case of biting the
hand that feeds us.
Canon's doing us a huge favor by presenting our hobby to the world with the
multibillion dollar stamp of their approval. The least we can do is
support that effort. We help that effort by teaching the newcomer how to
find things in the sky and use his new Canon 60DA. We accomplish nothing
positive if we instead tell the newcomer all the ways that his decision to
buy that particular Canon model was a poor one. He'll leave the hobby and
never return.
That's all I'm getting at. It's all about the newcomer. We shouldn't
badmouth Canon's efforts to get more people involved. To use your marketing
term....Canon is buying eyeballs for amateur astronomy. For that...I'm
extremely excited and grateful.
Mike
On Apr 5, 2012 12:04 PM, "Tim Jones" <tjmac@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hey Mike,
>
> Feeling a bit feisty were we? Since you seem to have taken exception to
my simple observation, I thought I'd provide a bit more explanation for my
thinking on this.
>
> Before everyone starts assuming that I'm against the Canon effort, I
definitely think the 60Da is a welcome product. Anything that promotes and
supports astronomy (amateur and otherwise) is always good news. My comment
was simply related to using "yesterday's tech" in an expensive (relatively)
body when newer tech and lower cost bodies are readily available.
>
> While I agree that the voiding of the warranty on a Hap-modified camera
will bother some users, being able to get 2 for 1 and smile all the while
is a big thing to some folks; or saving $639 without buying the second
camera and putting that money aside as your "warranty" replacement fund.
So far as supported or acknowledged, I'm not exactly sure how those two
terms matter since you can get far better Canon support (Q&A) from various
user groups / forums than from Canon's canned response support team.
>
> When the 20Da was released, there weren't a number of "other" options
available. When you've got the only game in town, it's really easy to
become a success, but even it's sales were only in the low 1,000's.
However, what signifies success to a company that creates devices that
normally sell in the millions of units? I don't suspect that low 1,000s is
a positive milestone to a company like Canon, otherwise, we wouldn't have
seen the 20Da pulled.
>
> My comment about the DIGIC 4+ is related to the fact that the DIGIC 5+
has already been released in the professional grade EOS 1D X and the EOS 5D
Mark III and the PowerShot family S100 and SX40 IS/HS, so why go with the
older chip and circuit and the more expensive body (my suspicion is they
had a lot of 60D bodies)? Plus, DIGIC 5+ has a new automatic white balance
algorithm, 75% better noise reduction resulting in much cleaner images at
very high speeds (ISO 1600+), improved processing speed for faster
downloads, and more flexibility in processing the incoming photons.
>
> Also, to your question about handling the higher Hâ?º response I refer you
to Hap's presentation on modifying DSLR's:
>
> http://www.rocklandastronomy.com/NEAIC/talks/Hap_Griffin.pdf
>
> Combined with his other discussions, my suspicion is that the current
level of software in the cameras don't have a problem with the unfiltered
levels.
>
> BTW - referring to the Hap Griffin or Hutech modded cameras as "some
garage modified aftermarket science experiment" is a bit presumptuous on
your part. And, Hutech fully warrants their modified cameras.
>
> As to Tom's comment about the "marketing genius" at Canon - it doesn't
take a marketing genius to get a product into production at an organization
like Canon. When you have the levels of success that they have, you can
afford to make a product for a niche and be satisfied with the press
attention when there's not a lot of other great things going on in the
digital camera world- call it "buying eyeballs". Even if the camera fails,
the release has already gotten Canon positive press in 100's if not 1,000's
of venues that would not normally even notice a Canon press release. I'm
not implying that I expect this is the reason for the release and I don't
mean that this lessens the value of the 60Da to buyers looking for that
solution, just that Canon may not be too worried about the camera's level
of sales success. I've been involved with this type of marketing with
multi-billion dollar companies for almost 30 years, so I'm not just
guessing here.
>
> However, if the company is serious about creating a very successful
product and if I was the Canon exec responsible for this, I would have
chosen the lower cost body and aimed at a much larger potential buyer
segment. While the 100's of "Adam Block's" of our world might jump on a
$1,500 camera, the number of amateurs looking for a $500 camera is much
larger and growing.
>
> I'll be very happy if the new 60Da becomes a huge success for Canon
because it might warrant them examining a lower cost body with a similar
modification, but I won't be surprised if it doesn't.
>
> Tim
>
> On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:26 AM, Mike Wiles wrote:
>
> > I do seem to remember the same types of discussion occurring way back
in the days of the 20Da and it turned out to b a highly rspected offering
from Canon. Considering that the 60D is a pretty solid camera and that
Canon does seem to put out a little effort for the astrophotographer - I
expect that this too will be a successful product. A Hap Griffin modified
DSLR isn't supported, warranted or acknowledged by Canon; nor does he have
the ability to tweak the algorithms used by the (lowly?) DIGIC 4 processor
to play nicer with the newly found H-Alpha sensitivity. What's that?
We're discussing a product that doesn't exist yet? No one has seen it?
Few, if any of us will actually get and use it whe it does become
available? Everything that's been said is completely uninformed
speculation seasoned with a light sprinkling barstool hyperbole? Of
course!! It's an amateur astronomy message board!! That's how we roll up
in here. :-).
> >
> > Only thing left is for Meade to announce their new flying car telescope
system so we can froth and moan about it for two years before it appears
and fails miserably. Meade's R&D budget is almost as much as the R&D
budget of the Saguaro Astronomy Club. Problem is....they have fewer people
interested in astronomy. Half of Cloudy Nights traffic is dedicated to
this topic in some form or another. :-)
> >
> > The Canon? I won't buy one. But it's a realllly interesting product.
I'll take the Canon product over some garage modified aftermarket science
experiment any day. If they ever decided to make a cooled, mono CMOS
camera....<sigh>..I'd be busy out in the desert putting it to good use
while the smarter minds of the world discussed the obvious shortcomings of
the CMOS sensor.
> >
> > Now that I've poked the bear, and gotten the Meade fanboys worked up in
the process no doubt....who else can I get going today?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >> ---- Tim Jones <tjmac@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> With the Hap Griffen modded EOS units, all it takes is a custom white
balance and you get the best of both. But, as I mentioned, the $639 you
save with the modded T2i, you could afford to buy a second unmodded T2i for
terrestrial photos.
> >>
>
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