[AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor

  • From: Walter Penk <wepenk@xxxxxxx>
  • To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:57:56 -0700 (PDT)

Hi, Kathleen.

My note was far, far too brief.  Being old, I was caught up in thinking about 
the past.  Unfortunately, I omitted what's going on today, which is for more 
important and relevant to the email comments that you wrote, Kathleen. I should 
have focussed not on what happened but more so on what is happening, which is 
exciting--such as citing the current work that Kathleen Lysell, PhD, is doing 
in 
Informatics and CPRS templates to support evidence based ACT, CBT and PE 
therapies for PTSD...referring to the breakout sessions that were reduced due 
to 
breaks in water pipes at the Baltimore Marriott, July 27-29, during the VA 
meetings this summer.  There are so many excellent developments already 
underway--such as My Healthe Vet--that are certainly worth exploring in a 
search 
to create a nation-wide approach in assessing treatment- and rehabilitation 
processes and outcomes.  




________________________________
From: "McNamara, Kathleen M." <Kathleen.McNamara@xxxxxx>
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 1:37:52 PM
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor

Aloha, Walter-
  There is so much in your e-mail, I don't know where to start.  Toni has asked 
that I discuss this with her, but we have not yet had a time set for our 
discussion. But, I surely do not want to re-invent the wheel, and if there is a 
model for collecting data that applies to this question, and/or if there are 
already data available, that certainly would be the starting point.
  Thank you for all of this information.  And, for those who have not read Rod 
Baker's book - "Stories from VA Psychology," I would highly recommend it....and 
recommend that all new staff read it, as well -- I think it can be an 
inspiration as to what psychologists can achieve in the VA not withstanding 
whatever obstacles the bureaucracy may place in our paths!    


-----Original Message-----
From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Penk
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:46 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor

I agree with what Kathleen McNamara has written so well:

that is, VA psychologists have an opportunity to design (within the rules and 
regulations governing and guiding Protection of Human) to conduct large scale 
surveys about assessment in the VA and how assessment relates to services 
utilization, processes, and outcomes for treatment- and rehabilitation-seeking 
veterans.  


Large-scale surveys already have been completed by centers within the VA--e.g., 
NEPEC, PERC, MIRECCs, GRECCs, VA Centers of Excellence, HSR&D, VA Cooperative 
Studies, and other groups, just to cite a couple of examples from health 
services research completed in the past.  And most of the studies completed by 
centers in the VA certainly build upon assessment (Going through my mind is the 
way that Suzy Gulliver, PhD, has organized the VA Center of Excellence for VISN 
17, in which Sandra Morissette, PhD, heads the Assessment core...bringing back 
memories to me about how Robert Rosenheck, MD, and Michael Neale, PhD, in the 
mid-1980's, focused NEPEC on assessment, creating complaints by clinicians 
about 
having to complete so many forms.).

And these many accomplishments were built upon the tradition of multi-site PEP 
studies pioneered by Lee Gurel, PhD (see Gurel's 2007 chapter in Rod Baker's 
Stories in VA Psychology) and C. James Klett, PhD, and John Overall, PhD, at VA 
in Perry Point (See Baker and Pickren's Psychology and the Department of 
Veterans Affairs, Washington, DC: APA Press, 2007), as well as many other 
psychologists who have worked in the VA. 


Without question, as we are reminded by Ben Mezrich's new book in 2010, The 
accidental billionaires: The founding of facebook, computer resources are now 
operational within the Veterans Health Administration, as Kathleen reminds us, 
to amass information based upon reliable and valid assessment, that might 
improve our practices for veterans, as Douglas K. Gottfredson, PhD, recounts 
for 
us in his chapter, "Computers in VA Psychology" in Baker's book.  In the spirit 
of, and recalling with delight, the accomplishments of Harold Gilbertstadt, 
PhD, 
and Robert Luchene, PhD, who did so much to improve assessment, we now must 
find 
the equivalent of our Mark Zuckerberg and Eduardo Saverin and mobilize VA 
computer resources to reveal processes and outcomes in treatment and 
rehabilitation that improve the recovery and adjustment of so many veterans who 
entrust Psychology with their care.

Thanks, Kathleen.  Great ideas,  I wonder, now, how to organize our assessments 
across all the "VA Nation" to teach us how to improve the delivery of services 
to, with, and for veterans and their families.


________________________________

From: "McNamara, Kathleen M." <Kathleen.McNamara@xxxxxx>
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 3:05:20 PM
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Quite a number of years ago, the APA Practice Directorate had a project with 
Atlantic Bell South which showed a significant reduction in costs when 
psychological assessments (objective testing like MMPI) were used with those 
who 
were covered under insurance by them.  The savings came from proper diagnosis 
and follow-up treatment recommendations,  with significant reduction in 
psychiatric hospitalizations, in particular.  


  Unfortunately, when I have tried to track down anything published or even a 
summary report, I have been informed that the data were proprietary and it is 
not a published finding.  I would like to see the Denver VA study (or have the 
reference), if you could please forward that to me.  Thank you. 




It would be great if we had some efforts from OMHS to coordinate a study across 
VA MHSs to do a large scale study, where psychological assessments were 
included 
in Intakes to make diagnostic decisions, and then utilization and/or costs for 
things such as: medications, hospitalizations, and subsequent number of visits 
to each of the various MH  provider groups (psychologist, psychiatrist, social 
worker, counselor) over a two year period could be tracked.  I think our 
resources would be well spent.  






Kathleen M. McNamara, Ph.D., ABPP

Lead Professional, Psychology

Staff Psychologist, Maui VA CBOC

808-871-2454







From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hagans, Chad L.
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 7:59 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Right, but how much money does it save when you use it? J



I think that’s the question the people making the decisions are asking, 
unfortunately.



Now, is anyone in our field working on answering that question?





Chad Hagans, Ph.D.

Licensed Psychologist

Pensacola Joint Ambulatory Care Clinic

850-912-2000 ext. 2091



From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evans, F. Barton
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:55 PM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Well said, William.  



There is an  empirically well supported treatment method called Therapeutic 
Assessment (TA) developed by Dr. Stephen Finn in Austin which integrates 
psychological assessment and treatment.  There was even a study done at the 
Denver VA successfully using TA with suicidal veterans. If anyone is 
interested, 
I would be glad to send information next week.





F Barton Evans, PhD

Clinical Psychologist

VA Montana Health Care System

Bozeman CBOC

Bozeman, MT 59715



Clinical Professor

Department of Psychiatry and 

  Behavioral Science

George Washington University

  School of Medicine



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From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crisp, William
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:01 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



What sets psychologists apart and makes them valuable is their training and 
ability to conduct research and do assessments. Many psychologists seem to have 
ignored these assets in favor of developing things like manualized training 
which opens the door for other disciplines to do our work.  In many VA settings 
research and assessment are discouraged as time consuming and less important 
than therapy, case management  and documentation.  Instead psychologists should 
develop protocols which emphasize both assessment and research as guides to 
treatment.  This could greatly improve treatment over generic style manualized 
treatment and demonstrate the value of psychologists. 




William Crisp, Ph.D.

Clinical Psychologist

Substance Treatment Employment Program

Central Texas Veteran’s Health care System

Temple, TX



From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hagans, Chad L.
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:03 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



In my opinion just another failure by psychology to demonstrate empirically the 
value of what we offer over and above the value of what other mental health 
professionals offer, if indeed that value exists.  I’d like to think it does 
because I’m a psychologist, but to say it does without empirical evidence would 
indicate bias more than anything else in my opinion.



It’s time to get to work and demonstrate the value.  Who wants to do the work?





Chad Hagans, Ph.D.

Licensed Psychologist

Pensacola Joint Ambulatory Care Clinic

850-912-2000 ext. 2091



From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Long, Stephen 
[Northport]
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 3:30 PM
To: 'members1@xxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Edgardo, you sound the way I feel at times like these.



It is very difficult to see so much of what one has worked for (developing 
skills, making what contributions you can, getting doctoral and postdoctoral 
training) over a professional career to have much of that devalued, denied, 
dismissed.



om: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Kirchberg, Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:49 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Thank you, Edgardo.  I value your viewpoint on all the issues you raise!



Tom 



Thomas M. Kirchberg, Ph.D., ABPP

Chief Psychologist

Mental Health Service

VA Medical Center Memphis

901-523-8990 ext. 5320



From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Padin, Edgardo (VHACLE)
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 9:55 PM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



By interesting, I’m sure you mean discouraging.  After 20+ years in the VA, I 
continue to be astounded at how so many other professions continue to have 
sufficient advocacy to increase their grade levels commensurate with their 
responsibilities (case in point, Social Workers continue a juggernaut rise in 
grade with each new “position” created (most now seemingly needing GS-12 
grades) 
while psychologist have an almost insurmountable task getting approvals at the 
GS-14 level.  The data notwithstanding (that we have increased the number of 
GS-14 positions), the success of our Hybrid T38 and Professional Standards 
Boards have been underwhelming.  




This is not to start an old argument about our glass ceiling as psychologists 
in 
the VA; but it is to say that this new initiative to bring in and somehow 
“Qualify” Master’s Level Counselors is a lobbyist win by Master’s Level 
Counselors and Counseling Programs to establish their niche in the VA.  And it 
will ultimately be to the detriment of Psychology.  A system of lower entry pay 
entry “counselors” who can rise to the GS-13 by taking on greater 
responsibility 
means fewer Psychologists will be needed as they become overseers of a cadre 
counselors doing more of the supposed “drone” work of fully manualized and 
technicalized therapy.  What a Brave New World.  Anyone who thinks this is not 
the case should look at the private sector and see how lower level “Assistants” 
are replacing part of the work (and the pay) of their more educated 
colleagues.  




Let me clarify here that I have nothing against Master’s Level Counselors, we 
have used them in Cleveland ever since I have been here.  I don’t know who is 
trying to kid whom whey they say that this is a “new position” of Mental Health 
Counselor, but we have had GS101-11 Readjustment Counselors in the VA for well 
over thee decades. They have limitations, but have worked out well in the areas 
we have used them.  But what I do know is that not a single one has ever shown 
that they have some secret knowledge or facility or skill and foundational 
learning that is different from, greater than, or particularly more technical 
in 
nature that Psychologists.  Usually, they have less.  The only difference now 
is 
that some accreditation body (CACREP) can now be added as a profession lobbying 
body in the VA.  Personally, I am not amused.  




So, maybe we as Psychologists are too educated, maybe manualized, evidence  
based protocols are making our “therapy” work too rote and straightforward for 
the amount of pay we are demanding, maybe what we do, with a good cookbook here 
and an evidence based therapy there, can be done by cheaper labor.  I’m not 
sure; but I will say that with this cannon shot of promoting our Master’s Level 
colleagues, we will find out.  End of rant.  




From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fischer, Pamela (OKL)
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:52 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Re: Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



It is interesting to me that the LPC who is a program manager can be a GS 13 – 
the grade level that many psychologists who manage programs and have years of 
experience cannot move beyond.



Pamela C. Fischer, Ph.D.

Director, Primary Care Mental Health #111AC

Veterans Affairs Medical Center -OKC

921 N.E. 13th Street

Oklahoma City, OK 73104

Phone: 405-456-3634

Fax:    405-456--5956

From: avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:avaplmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Shorter, George Wiley
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 8:54 AM
To: members1@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AVAPL Members] Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor



Colleagues, 



As many of you have been awaiting the Qualification Standards for Mental Health 
Counselors, we wanted to share these with you when we first received it. 






George Shorter, Ph.D.

President, AVAPL





"The willingness with which our young people are likely to serve in any war, no 
matter how justified, shall be directly proportional as to how they perceive 
the 
Veterans of earlier wars were treated and appreciated by their country."  
-George Washington










PolicyUpdate

Date:  9/29/10                                                  ID#: 2010-25

Policy Office:  Recruitment & Placement Policy Service (059)
Contact:  Kent A. Wellman (Kent.Wellman2@xxxxxx) Policy Subject:  VA Handbook 
5005, PT II, Chapter 2, Appendix G43, Licensed Professional Mental Health 
Counselor qualification standard.

Handbook Reference: 5005

The attached new VA qualification standard for Licensed Professional Mental 
Health Counselor, GS-101 has been signed.  Since this is a new occupation to VA 
there will NOT be an initial one-time boarding.  Additional implementation 
instructions and guidance will be forthcoming from the Veterans Health 
Administration (VHA).  The new Appendix G43 will be added to the electronic 
version of VA Handbook 5005, Pt II, located at 
http://vaww1.va.gov/ohrm/HRLibrary/Dir-Policy.htm 


Questions regarding this Policy Update should be addressed to the Title 38 
Staffing Policy Section, mailto:staffingpolicy059/vaco@xxxxxxx 


Status: Policy Process Step 4

Estimated date of release/implementation:  9/29/2010

This policy alert e-mail is part of a notification process that is intended to 
alert HR Specialists and other interested parties that a new policy or change 
to 
existing policy is required or being considered. If you have specific questions 
regarding this policy alert, please address them to the contact person named 
above. Policy update e-mails regarding this policy subject will be 
automatically 
generated according to the policy communication schedule/timeline. For more 
information about this policy alert or the policy communication 
schedule/timeline please go to http://vaww.va.gov/ohrm/ 
<http://vaww1.va.gov/ohrm/>  










I agree

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