[austechwriter] Re: Must, will, etc. - modals

  • From: "Petra Liverani" <petsky@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:41:40 +1000

Steve,

This is my last word on the subject. I've already given examples of "will"
being used not in the future. "That'll be John at the door", "That'll be
$10.50" are not referring to the future. Another is "He'll sit for hours"
indicating a habit which refers to past, present and future all in one.
However, I was never advocating using "will" in instructions. I simply
mentioned modals because I think they're an interesting phenomenon in the
language and it's useful to know what they are. I'm sure whole books have
been written about them and I did a course at uni on them. I agree with
you - get rid of indefinites like "should" and there's no need for "will"
and "shall". But I don't necessarily think there's one simple rule for how
to word instructions - it depends on context and, of course, your company's
policy. I think "must" has its place and the passive is sometimes
appropriate.

What I'd like to see is an example of simple present tense used for
instructions. You don't say, for example:

You put the disk into the machine.
You press the start button
You blah blah

You say:
Put the disk into the machine
Press the start button

Imperative, Steve, not simple present.

Petra



----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Hudson <cruddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:15 PM
Subject: [austechwriter] Re: Must, will, etc. - modals


> > My point is not to say that "will" does not refer to the future - what
I'm
> saying is that it is not a simply a future marker.
>
> If that is truly the case Petra, please provide examples of "will" being
> used in present and past tenses.
>
> My point is this
>
> We live and work in the present tense, thus our work instructions should
be
> as well. Being traditionally ISO trained, I was brought up with "will" and
> naturally gravitated towards it. Then Tech Whirlers set me straight real
> quick. Future tense adds extra words, will being just one of them. Then I
> married a Thai lass, they have NO TENSES at all.
>
> A business shouldn't "should do" things. It should "do things". We do
things
> this way. When we don't, we record. There is P&P in a nutshell. Present,
> perfect, tense, active voice leads straight to imperatives.
>
> If I say " we will do it this way" it can be literally taken to mean we
> don't do it that way right now. Matter of fact, I can say "I will test
every
> reply" and never test one but plan for said test in the future and it
STILL
> HOLDS TRUE. Future tense in P&P is a scapegoat for bad current practices.
>
> I use "should" etc in this message because it is NOT a corporate P&P. Said
> "modals" ARE a part of English. So are colloquialisms. Neither are part of
> TECH writing.
>
>
> Steve Hudson
>
> Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
> Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
> Email:      steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Products:   http://www.geocities.com/word_heretic/products.html
> Spellbooks: 728 pages of dump left and dropping...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  Petra Liverani
>
> Steve,
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about. The infinitive is "to + verb",
> that is, the verb by itself, where it does not express time and is not
> attached to a subject. "Will" can be used with "be" to refer to events in
> the future as it can be used with any other verb. What is your point? My
> point is not to say that "will" does not refer to the future - what I'm
> saying is that it is not a simply a future marker. Often, it refers to an
> event in the future but with an added meaning (for example, determination
to
> do something -  I will so go to the party) and it may also be used in
> situations where the future is not involved  - or barely (that'll be John
at
> the door, that'll be $10.50, Will you please shut up!). Probably, most
often
> when we are talking about what we're going to do in the future (with no
> added meaning) we use the present continuous - I'm going to England next
> week.
>
> Petra
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Hudson <cruddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 6:22 PM
> Subject: [austechwriter] Re: Must, will, etc. - modals
>
>
> > Funny, I coulda swore "will" was a future "to be". Ye olde infinitive
> > actually.
> >
> > Steve Hudson
> >
> > Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
> > Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
> > Email:      steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Products:   http://www.geocities.com/word_heretic/products.html
> > Spellbooks: 728 pages of dump left and dropping...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Petra Liverani
> > Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2003 3:53 PM
> > To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [austechwriter] Must, will, etc. - modals
> >
> >
> > You might find it interesting to note that "must" and "will" belong to a
> > class of auxiliary verbs in English called modals. Modals are words
which
> > indicate our opinions and attitudes. English modals include:
> > can    could
> > shall   should
> > will     would
> > may    might
> > must
> >
> > In modern English only "could" and "would" are used as pasts of "can"
and
> > "will". (I could do gymnastics when I was young. He would sit for
hours).
> >
> > Modals are used with many different meanings. "Will" combined with a
verb
> is
> > often taught as being future tense. However, there really is no proper
> > future tense in English. "Will" can be used for future but so can the
> > present continuous (I'm going to America next week). "Will" can also be
> used
> > in other ways. For example:
> >
> > That will be John at the door. (probability)
> > You will not go to the party. (prohibition)
> > I will go to the party. (intention)
> >
> > There's quite a lot of stuff on modals on the internet and an
interesting
> > one about teaching modals to foreigners can be found at
> > http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/modalsinteaching.html
> >
> > In the last place I worked "shall" and "will" were replaced with "must"
to
> > express obligation. "Must" seems to unequivocally express obligation
> better
> > than "will", especially for non-native speakers. However, people might
> find
> > "must" off-putting if they find it all the way through a document. As
> > someone else suggested, using "always" or trying to find other ways
around
> > using a strong-sounding imperative without comprising meaning is
probably
> > desirable.
> >
> > Petra
> >
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