[argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
- From: <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:01:54 +0100
Roger,
I forgot to reply to your question: my printer is an RGB printer (HP Z3100).
Regarding the color shifting that occurs with AbsCol ... I had assumed that
this is proportional to the luminance (so that at the white point the D50
white is shifted fully to the white point in the wtpt tag). However if the
shifting is done using a 3x3 matrix then it must mean that all colors are
shifted by the same amount. Or is the transform modified by the bkpt-wtpt
line to make the shifting proportional? It would seem to me that shifting
all colors by the same amount irrespective of luminance level would be a
pretty lunatic thing to do ... but then perhaps I have gone through a few
inversions and transforms myself :).
Also, when we talk about colors being 'shifted' ... I take it that the only
colors that actually get changed are the RGB output values. The AbsCol
'shift' in the PCS is just redefining the position of the white (and
presumably black) point ... is that correct?
Cheers,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Roger Breton
Sent: 03 July 2014 03:05
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Robert,
By design, the clipping already occurs right at the Device to PCS stage. By
the time RGB has been converted to PCS, the damage is done. So, to use
RelCol or AbsCol to view the converted or simulated data afterward is
irrelevant, as far as clipping is concerned.
BTW, in your chain of conversion, can you confirm that your printer is
profiled in RGB? I think that's what it is but don't have your original
post.
Perceptual is the same as RelCol is the same as AbsCol when converting
between "Display" RGB color spaces, such as between aRGB and sRGB or between
ProPhotoRGB and aRGB. AbsCol is different when converting to an RGB Output
Device such as your Epson printer.
For soft-proofing, Perceptual Intent is never used, by definition. Not
because of "possible" gamut clipping but because it is not colorimetrically
correct.
Best / Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2 juillet 2014 18:07
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Hi Roger,
Hi Roger,
I'm thinking of a soft-proofing round-trip (with Simulate paper) from, say,
Adobe RGB, to an RGB printer profile and back (with Relative Colorimetric
selected as the soft-proofing intent).
So RelCol from ARGB to PCS, RelCol from PCS to RGBDest, AbsCol from RGBDest
to PCS, RelCol from PCS to ARGB.
There could be gamut-clipping from PCS to RGBDest (which is OK from a
soft-proofing point of view).
There could also be a gamut-clipping from PCS to ARGB, I think, which would
not be OK from a soft-proofing point of view. The reason I think there could
be clipping is that the AbsCol from RGBDest to PCS will shift the colors and
so some of these may no longer be within the ARGB gamut.
If the selected soft-proofing intent is Perceptual then it could be worse:
if the printer gamut is larger than ARGB, the perceptual mapping will
stretch the ARGB gamut to the RGBDest gamut so that there will be clipping
to the ARGB space on the PCS to ARGB RelCol mapping. So in addition to the
potential AbsCol color-shift clipping there could be clipping due to the
ARGB space being smaller than the RGBDest space (good reason to use ProPhoto
or bigger?).
Is that correct? I'm fairly woolly on this whole subject, as you can
probably see.
Cheers,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Roger Breton
Sent: 02 July 2014 21:36
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Robert,
Yes, all colors are shifted by the same amount, it's a linear
transformation.
Out-of-gamut clipping? Impossible. Suppose I am viewing a CMYK image in
AbsCol. By definition all CMYK colors are in gamut. The Working Spaces are
completely unrelated to this viewing situation, unless, for some reason, no
CMYK profile is assigned to the image, in which case, yes, Photoshop would
use the CMYk Working Space to do the AbsCol rendering to the screen.
Best / Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2 juillet 2014 14:53
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Hello Roger,
What I meant is that Absolute rendering, in moving the gray line shifts all
colors by the same amount (as opposed to a proportional shift as in
Relative).
It would seem to me that there is still the potential for out-of-gamut
clipping to the working space as a result of the shifting of the colors.
Would that be the case?
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Roger Breton
Sent: 02 July 2014 14:34
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Robert,
You wrote " I guess that this will work as the absolute AtoB transform will
only affect the white point (or gray line).".
In case I don't understand your meaning, the AbsCol to the screen affect
*all* colors, not just the white and the grays.
Best / Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2 juillet 2014 07:29
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
Hi,
I think I have a somewhat better understanding of what's going on now.
What Photoshop does when simulating paper color is to do a normal transform
from the PCS to the destination using the chosen intent and then it does an
Absolute transform from destination back to the PCS. I guess that this will
work as the absolute AtoB transform will only affect the white point (or
gray line).
Certainly modifying the wtpt (and bkpt) values in the profile to match the
paper under the particular illuminant does give a very accurate soft-proof
when the paper and monitor image are viewed side-by-side.
I'm confused about what happens if we do a round-trip conversion from, say
ProPhoto to Destination and back to ProPhoto using a Perceptual intent
(say).
What I would expect would be:
1. ProPhoto->PCS: Relative (since the working space uses a
matrix-based profile). Uses ProPhoto Profile.
2. PCS->Destination: Perceptual. Uses Destination profile BtoA.
3. Destination->PCS: Perceptual. Uses Destination profile AtoB.
4. PCS->ProPhoto: Relative. Uses ProPhoto profile.
If that was the case then I would expect to see a change at 3, which I do if
I use a profile made using i1Profiler or using the canned paper profile.
However I see no difference (or can measure no difference using an i1Pro)
using an Argyll-generated profile. This is affecting the soft-proofing,
which (I presume) uses a round-trip as above.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Graeme Gill
Sent: 25 June 2014 07:37
To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant
robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> I've checked various documents, including this one
> http://www.computer-darkroom.com/softproof/softproof_1.htm and
> Photoshop does simulate paper color with all the rendering intents, as
> I can see
when
> I do a soft-proof.
Hi,
Right, but is that a full simulation (i.e. representing the absolute paper
white on the display), or a partial simulation (i.e. representing the paper
white adapted to the display D65 white point ?).
The document you refer to mentions "Relative Colorimetric", hinting at the
latter. Photoshop having a "Simulate Paper Color" button doesn't help
clarify what it's actually doing either.
> I would really like to understand what Photoshop is doing. I have a
contact
> in Adobe who should be able to point me in the right direction.
> However before doing that I would like to understand what is happening
> at the profile level.
> A print made from a profile that uses an sp file is identical to a
> print made with a profile that does not use the sp file. So I assume
> that the BtoA (PCS to Printer) is at D50 and is not affected by the
> custom illuminant. Is that correct?
No, that's not correct. Using a custom illuminant and/or observer changes
the XYZ numbers and possibly the relationship between the XYZ numbers, but
ICC color profiles are all normalized (i.e. chromatically transformed) to
have the white point be exactly D50. So using any non-absolute colorimetric
B2A will (superficially) seem much like the B2A from a default D50
illuminant and 1931 standard observer XYZ values.
It's only when you examine the profiles in some more detail that you will
see differences, and these depend on the spectral characteristics of the
inks.
> If the profile made with the sp file is used for soft-proofing, the
> paper white is adjusted correctly (I've also tried different
> illuminants like A,
> F5 etc, all appearing correct). So I assume that the AtoB (Printer to
PCS)
> does take into account the custom illuminant. Is that correct?
No, see above. Both the A2B and B2A tables will be different if a different
illuminant and/or observer are used. The B2A table is created by inverting
the device characterization A2B table.
> Does this apply to all the rendering intents, or only to Absolute
> Colorimetric (as I think you said)?
See above - all the tables will be affected, because they are all based on
the same measurement values. The differences between default and custom
illuminant and/or observer are likely to be larger and more obvious when
comparing the absolute colorimetric intent though.
> Is this (or whatever method you use) also applied to FWA compensation
> (if
-i
> and -f both specify the custom .sp file)?
Yes. FWA compensation more accurately simulates the effect of U.V. in the
illuminant on the FWA/OBE in the paper, so naturally this is affected by the
spectrum (ie. the level of U.V.) in the custom illuminant.
> I've read your documentation and purchased your paper on FWA
> compensation, but I still can't make much sense of what's happening.
To have a precise understanding means comprehending the basic color science,
understanding what the profiling process and profiles are doing, and (the
hard part), figuring out what the applications that use the profiles are
actually doing. The latter is the hard part because typically the software
vendors give you no clue, and hide behind inscrutable "user friendly"
buttons such as "Simulate Paper Color". That's why often the process is one
of comparing what software does with reference implementations such as the
ArgyllCMS tools (cctiff, xicclu) or Lcms tools, where you can know exactly
what's happening.
Graeme Gill.
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