Hi, I think I have a somewhat better understanding of what's going on now. What Photoshop does when simulating paper color is to do a normal transform from the PCS to the destination using the chosen intent and then it does an Absolute transform from destination back to the PCS. I guess that this will work as the absolute AtoB transform will only affect the white point (or gray line). Certainly modifying the wtpt (and bkpt) values in the profile to match the paper under the particular illuminant does give a very accurate soft-proof when the paper and monitor image are viewed side-by-side. I'm confused about what happens if we do a round-trip conversion from, say ProPhoto to Destination and back to ProPhoto using a Perceptual intent (say). What I would expect would be: 1. ProPhoto->PCS: Relative (since the working space uses a matrix-based profile). Uses ProPhoto Profile. 2. PCS->Destination: Perceptual. Uses Destination profile BtoA. 3. Destination->PCS: Perceptual. Uses Destination profile AtoB. 4. PCS->ProPhoto: Relative. Uses ProPhoto profile. If that was the case then I would expect to see a change at 3, which I do if I use a profile made using i1Profiler or using the canned paper profile. However I see no difference (or can measure no difference using an i1Pro) using an Argyll-generated profile. This is affecting the soft-proofing, which (I presume) uses a round-trip as above. Robert -----Original Message----- From: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Graeme Gill Sent: 25 June 2014 07:37 To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [argyllcms] Re: Custom Illuminant robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: > I've checked various documents, including this one > http://www.computer-darkroom.com/softproof/softproof_1.htm and Photoshop > does simulate paper color with all the rendering intents, as I can see when > I do a soft-proof. Hi, Right, but is that a full simulation (i.e. representing the absolute paper white on the display), or a partial simulation (i.e. representing the paper white adapted to the display D65 white point ?). The document you refer to mentions "Relative Colorimetric", hinting at the latter. Photoshop having a "Simulate Paper Color" button doesn't help clarify what it's actually doing either. > I would really like to understand what Photoshop is doing. I have a contact > in Adobe who should be able to point me in the right direction. However > before doing that I would like to understand what is happening at the > profile level. > A print made from a profile that uses an sp file is identical to a print > made with a profile that does not use the sp file. So I assume that the > BtoA (PCS to Printer) is at D50 and is not affected by the custom > illuminant. Is that correct? No, that's not correct. Using a custom illuminant and/or observer changes the XYZ numbers and possibly the relationship between the XYZ numbers, but ICC color profiles are all normalized (i.e. chromatically transformed) to have the white point be exactly D50. So using any non-absolute colorimetric B2A will (superficially) seem much like the B2A from a default D50 illuminant and 1931 standard observer XYZ values. It's only when you examine the profiles in some more detail that you will see differences, and these depend on the spectral characteristics of the inks. > If the profile made with the sp file is used for soft-proofing, the paper > white is adjusted correctly (I've also tried different illuminants like A, > F5 etc, all appearing correct). So I assume that the AtoB (Printer to PCS) > does take into account the custom illuminant. Is that correct? No, see above. Both the A2B and B2A tables will be different if a different illuminant and/or observer are used. The B2A table is created by inverting the device characterization A2B table. > Does this apply to all the rendering intents, or only to Absolute > Colorimetric (as I think you said)? See above - all the tables will be affected, because they are all based on the same measurement values. The differences between default and custom illuminant and/or observer are likely to be larger and more obvious when comparing the absolute colorimetric intent though. > Is this (or whatever method you use) also applied to FWA compensation (if -i > and -f both specify the custom .sp file)? Yes. FWA compensation more accurately simulates the effect of U.V. in the illuminant on the FWA/OBE in the paper, so naturally this is affected by the spectrum (ie. the level of U.V.) in the custom illuminant. > I've read your documentation and purchased your paper on FWA compensation, > but I still can't make much sense of what's happening. To have a precise understanding means comprehending the basic color science, understanding what the profiling process and profiles are doing, and (the hard part), figuring out what the applications that use the profiles are actually doing. The latter is the hard part because typically the software vendors give you no clue, and hide behind inscrutable "user friendly" buttons such as "Simulate Paper Color". That's why often the process is one of comparing what software does with reference implementations such as the ArgyllCMS tools (cctiff, xicclu) or Lcms tools, where you can know exactly what's happening. Graeme Gill.