Jan, You can always try it with your own males. Just because Jerry has a large herd I would not expect him to use them. Cheers, Jimmy Jimmy and Nancy Stepp Rolling Thunder Farms phone (805) 386-2001 fax (805) 386-8282 Jimmy cell (805) 312-4052 5837 E. Los Angeles Avenue, Somis, California 93066 in Ventura County mailto:alpacas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.rollingthunderfarms.com Where you will find a rainbow of Alpacas all ARI Registered and DNA Tested ----- Original Message ----- From: "jan/nat sherrill" <alpacas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 6:48 AM Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: fiber herds > Hello BJ and Ian, > This issue has interested me for quite awhile and there have > been long discussions on alpacasite about gelding males. I did write > to David Anderson suggesting that they add a topic for a vet round > table at the next winter vet conference but didn't get far with that. > > The question of what to do with all the males who are not > going to be herdsires should be in the forefront of our minds now > before it becomes a huge problem to deal with. > > Perhaps either of you can suggest other avenues we could go > in trying to see what the physical problems of the early geldling > would actually be? It seems that we should establish exactly what > the parameters are before deciding what is the best way to deal with > the non-herdsire males. We talk a bout the long legs but wouldn't it > be useful if someone like Jerry Forstner with his huge herd actually > took a group of males and did early gelding then followed them for a > period of years? Or took several groups and did different > treatm;ents and watched the progress. Scientific studies aren't > that difficult to set up if you have some extra resources. > > Cheers. > JanSherrrill > Celestial Alpacas > Paso Robles, CA > > > >BJ, > >The major problem with finding well priced fibre animals is all to do > >with service fees and little else, it seems to me. When a breeder is > >paying the exorbitant fees that some males attract it is always going > >to be an uphill battle for the breeder of a faq male cria to get their > >money back, let alone make a profit. Breeders have several choices: > >1. they can sell the animal for a low fee and ammortise the loss into > >the next female they breed, or > >2. they can use lower cost males as sires. > >I have just had several quite lengthy phone calls with several > >Australian breeders on just this subject and the word I am getting is > >that there is now a wider choice of quality males available for service > >in Australia for under $1000. One man I spoke with has spent over > >$80,000 on a white male which he put out for work at $1500 a service. > >he has dropped that to $900 with a return service for free if the cria > >is not registered. When you realise that less than 10% of all the males > >born in Australia are registered for use as sires, you may appreciate > >the importance of these price movements. I suspect that these price > >movements may well result in fewer breeders owning males as its > >financial attractiveness becomes less and less. > >The main reason later castration, as advocated by many, is the > >seemingly extra length of leg bone in animals that are castrated at > >less than 18 months. > >I have yet to see this nor have I seen anything that indicates this is > >deleterious to the animals health. Longer legs does not automatically > >translate into weaker legs however, it would transgress the showing > >standard! > >My view is that fibre animals will probably only have a financially > >productive life of five or six years after which they will either > >become pets or rugs. In the longer term, skins and meat (in that order) > >will become very important economic byproducts of fibre and animal > >production. If I am right and the alpaca wether has a commercial life > >of shorter duration than breeding females, then leg length becomes even > >more unimportant. > >It has been suggested that castrating before the influence of > >testosterone is reflected in fibre fineness blowout, is a singularly > >good enough reason to castrate sooner rather than later. This is > >something that I would support. > >At the moment, compiling a herd of quality fibre animals would have to > >be very challenging! > >I am afraid that I do not know enough about the US industry to suggest > >where you might start in sourcing these animals - perhaps someone else > >might have an idea or two? > >Kindest regards, > >Ian > >On Thursday, Jun 10, 2004, at 11:36 US/Pacific, BJ Forster wrote: > > > >> Hello Ian, > >> > >> I attended the workshop you held at Champion Alpacas as well as > >> listened to > >> you at the Fiber To Fashion Conference in Reno this year. > >> > >> You and several other speakers really helped clarify what I want to do > > > with > >> my alpacas. I don't want to be an alpaca breeder selling breeding > >> stock. > >> I am interested in the fiber for my own use and other local crafters. > >> I > >> currently have 5 suri males, 2 pregnant suri females and one gelded > >> huacaya. When you were talking about Australia's fiber herds, you > >> mentioned that the fiber males were gelded at 6 weeks and kept for 5 > >> to 6 > >> years. All of the vet books I have read, do not recommend gelding a > >> male > >> until he is 18 months old. What are the downsides to gelding so > >> young? > >> > >> Of course, the other problem I am running into is that everyone wants > >> to > >> charge more for the animal than the fiber is worth. > >> > >> I would appreciate any comments on starting a fiber herd. Several of > >> my > >> fellow crafters would like to have good fiber animals without the > >> associated expense and problems of breeding females. Again, they can't > >> afford the high prices that so many breeders want to charge. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> BJ Forster > >> > >> --- > >> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > >> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > >> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > >> > >> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to > >> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the > >> quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > >> > >> > >Cheers, > >Ian Watt > >Morro Bay > >www.alpacahandbook.com > >The International Alpaca Handbook is here! > > > >--- > >List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > >ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > >List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > > > >How to Unsubscribe: send an email to > >alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without > >the quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > > > -- > Jan Sherrill > Celestial Alpacas > Paso Robles, CA,USA > alpacas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > --- > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > > --- List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email.