[access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

  • From: Alex Stone <alex.stone@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:11:07 +0000

Paul, agreed, but it's a fact universally acknowledged, I believe, that Derek won't ever let it lie.

On 04/12/2015 22:01, Paul Leake wrote:

Derek, I think you said this on numerous occasions before. Has this thread outlived its usefulness now?

Kind regards,

Paul
Twitter: @paulleake1

paul.leake@xxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Hornby" <derek.hornby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:18:43 -0000
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

Hi Clive
I wonder what the legal definition is equality!

Going back to my issue with HSBC and their statements.

I have discovered that the standard print copy of statements,
the actual statement details are on one side of the printed
page. So one would have thought, what I am asking for,
Braille on one side of page, simply gives me access to
an equal service to the sighted customers.

If they can have their statement details on one side of page why
cannot I!


Strangely, the standard print copy, at the back of each
page, there is general information.

this general information is 100% same on back of each page.
I woule have thought that is very wasteful on paper!

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 12:12 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements
RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

Hi,

Yes, what concerns me most is that, since no other blind people have
been consulted, the parties making the decision may be a bit hazy on
what makes the difference between a need and a preference. Not enough
people ask: Would you put up with this if it happened to you? On
Watchdog last night, the reporter astutely asked: "would you be happy
to go to a restaurant where you couldn't hear the conversations around
you, where you had to be carried to the loo (yes, apparently it's
still happening), or where you it was an uphill struggle to find out
what what you could choose to eat? The litmus test should always be:
would this standard of service be acceptable to you", rather than
"should we be making special adjustments for those people"? So in my
view, Paul Benson asked the right question: Would a sighted person be
expected to put up with bank statements on cheap paper with print
bleeding through to one side or the other. In my view, both the
ombudsman and the RNIB could have do
ne more to bring the ral experience home to the providers.

Best,
Clive



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Shaun O'Connor
Sent: 27 November 2015 17:16
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements
RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

My gues is that the nub of the problem is the legal definition
of"reasonable adjustment" within the meaning of the relevant
legislation.

On 27/11/2015 17:11, Richard Godfrey-McKay wrote:
I think that some are not asking the right question here.

As I understand it, the bank has an obligation, under the Equality
Act
2010, to make a much talked about "reasonable adjustment" to enable
a
disabled person to access its services.

If a service user cannot easily use double-sided Braille, but can
easily read single-sided Braille, then there must be an argument to
require the bank to provide single-sided Braille.

It's clearly not technically difficult, and I suspect that much of
the
correspondence on the matter has not been written by people who have

knowledge of the problem and the ease of providing a solution.

Personally, I was sorry to read the public reply from RNIB, as their

opinion may be used by the bank as an excuse not to provide the
adjustment requested.

Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 27 November 2015 16:51
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Because there is no bleed-through on a decent printout, as Paul
Benson
put it, give a sighted person a printout on thin cheapo paper where
the print from the reverse side showed through the page, and they'd
do
something about it. Though of course in that case, more people would

feel the effect and complain.

Best,
Clive

If one person calls you an elephant, they may have problems with
their
perception of who you are. If the whole world starts feeding you
buns,
get your trunk out of their way.



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 27 November 2015 16:39
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Hi,

But even people with print can't choose single or double sided, so
why
should you?

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 15:37
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

How do we know just one customer prefers it?

What about those that choose grade 1 Braille?

What about those that have chosen chip and signature!
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Alex Stone
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 3:31 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Steve, even so, just because it can be done, why should either the
bank or transcriber be forced to do such a thing just because one
customer prefers it?

On 27/11/2015 15:17, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi Derek,

While it is not difficult for me to do, it depends on the
transcriber, the
software they use, etc. Also, it would mean another flag that the
bank
would have to hold on your records.

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 14:49
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
But Steve, I thought you agreed that what I was asking for isn't
difficult to do.

Remember the bank has said if they could do it they would
happily
do it.

So they still have-not said why cannot do it.

and the quote you have seen in another message, was from RNIB



Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:10 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Hi,

I happen to agree with that finding.

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 10:20
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi All
Regarding Braille bank statements.

here is more comment from the ombudsman.
Notice that RNIB supports the bank?
Also the bank has still failed to give a reason, as to why they
cannot do Braille on both sides of paper.
Few weeks ago they were saying if they could, they would happily
do
it!

Now quote from bank, to the ombudsman.


"As previously discussed to you on the telephone we do not offer
any
customer bank statements single sided. All statements that we
produce
included Braille are sent double sided and this is the way that
statement production system works.

"We have discussed this matter with the Royal Institute of Blind
People and they have provided the below to our Diversity Manager
Dear
Neil, further to your telcon with Steve Tyler this morning, please
find below quote from Steve in this respect.


Reference: Complaint by Derek Hornby re Duplex Braille Statements

It is RNIB's view that the business decision taken by HSBC
regarding
the production of bank statements in Duplex form (Braille on
both
sides
of the paper) is a perfectly accessible means of delivering
this
information to regular Braille reading clients. Although Mr
Hornby
may
have preferences around his ideal form of statements, as with
all
business decisions, individual preferences and especially
highly
specific ones cannot be delivered upon when handling mass
produced
or template products. We believe that although he may have

a preference, double sided Braille is a standard and
uniform
means
by which Braille is produced and has no bearing on the actual
accessibility of the product other than a stated preference.

Customers continually express preferences and were there to be an
overwhelming response, then clearly we would need to review
processes
and would recommend that to HSBC.
As it stands, given the ubiquitous nature of Braille produced in
this
standard fashion, as well as the environmental impact of reduced

usage
of paper and consequent bulk of Braille, we believe this to be a
perfectly sound business decision by the bank.

regards
Helena Suprun
PA to Head of Solutions, Strategy and Planning (Steve Tyler) Royal
National Institute of Blind People (RNIB)

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