I can see your reasoning. But But I can't see how any service provider can
meet the needs of a disabled person 100 percent and I feel there needs to be
some reasonable adjustment on our part too.
When I worked for Kent Association for the Blind one of our problems (which
to my knowledge still hasn't been resolved), was how, when sending out a
mailshot, you could identify each person's preferred format. Perhaps they
now have a more sophisticated computer programme, but at the time the
computer just contained basic details, like name, address, date of birth,
date of registration and type of registration. When they did a mailshot, the
computer just churned out address labels. It was impossible, and may still
be, to ensure people had their communication in their preferred format, for
example, at the time of registration they might be able to read x 16 but who
knows 2 years later? Perhaps they can't even read at all anymore!
If an organisation whose business was sight impaired people couldn't get it
right, then it is a tall order to expect a commercial company to meet
everyone's specific needs. Otherwise, should they be offering statements in
a choice of font sizes, colour contrast, via e-mail, on cassette (still some
people's preferred option), CD, memory sticks, SD cards etc. etc. Surely, as
a business, they need to meet the needs of their disabled customers in as
efficient and cost-effective way as possible. I do have some sympathy with
Derek's plight, but have some sympathy for the bank too whose expertise
isn't with technology for the sight impaired.
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 27 November 2015 18:58
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
Alison, No, I think it's the effect of the disability on a particular
person's ability to access the service rather than what most blind people
would or would not find accessible.
I agree that it's not just a question of preference, but it is a question of
providing a service in a format that a particular service user can access.
Now, what a service user may expect will be influenced, to some extent, by
how easy it is for the service provider to accede to a particular request.
So, it may well be reasonable, depending on all the circs of a particular
case, to expect a service provider to provide single sided Braille if that
facilitates access which double sided does not to a particular individual,
and upon the supposition that this can be arranged relatively automatically
and without undue cost.
On the other hand, for example, if a service user's fingers were such that
giant dot Braille were required in order for the service user to read it,
and the provision of that Braille was particularly difficult an/or expensive
to provide, the court may well find that it would be unreasonable for the
service provider to be required to produce jumbo Braille.
In most cases, the famous "man on the Clapham omnibus" will know, on being
made aware of all the relevant facts, including the financial standing of
the service provider, whether a requested adjustment is reasonable or not,
and my guess is that, certainly where the service provider is not likely to
be unduly affected financially by making an adjustment, the Court may well
give the service user the benefit of the doubt.
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
CJ &AA MAY
Sent: 27 November 2015 18:14
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
I think it surely depends on accessability rather than just preference; if
the format is accessible (even though the reader would find another format
preferable or a little easier), surely the provider has met their
obligations.
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 27 November 2015 18:05
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
Peter, with respect, I don't think that's the question.
The question is to assess the effect that a service user's disability has on
his being able to access the usual service provided, and the reasonableness
of making an adjustment which would facilitate access to the service.
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Peter Beasley
Sent: 27 November 2015 17:48
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
Why would any competent braille reader have any problem with 2 sided
Braille.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 5:34 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
Don't forget that service providers may be obliged to behave in ways which
treat disabled people more favourably than able-bodied people (I'm
paraphrasing).
As what is being requested is just that customer "a" gets access to the
service using profile "a" rather than profile "b", and as this is surely a
pretty easy thing to automate, then if a service user finds that the
double-sided Braille doesn't allow him to read statements, then there must
surely be an argument to compel the bank to make that adjustment.
Of course it would ultimately be for the Court to decide whether the request
was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case, but I wouldn't mind
betting that there may well be firms prepared to take this kind of case on a
no win no fee basis.
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Michael Moore
Sent: 27 November 2015 17:22
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
Hi,
The term "reasonable adjustment" is probably the same as in the education
sector. The SENDA/SENDO legislation states that reasonable adjustment should
be made, however what classifies as being reasonable has to be slogged out
in court.
I have a sneaky feeling that any token provision suffices the requirement,
and the toothless wonder that is RNIB will offer no help!
Regards,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 27 November 2015 17:12
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman
I think that some are not asking the right question here.
As I understand it, the bank has an obligation, under the Equality Act 2010,
to make a much talked about "reasonable adjustment" to enable a disabled
person to access its services.
If a service user cannot easily use double-sided Braille, but can easily
read single-sided Braille, then there must be an argument to require the
bank to provide single-sided Braille.
It's clearly not technically difficult, and I suspect that much of the
correspondence on the matter has not been written by people who have
knowledge of the problem and the ease of providing a solution.
Personally, I was sorry to read the public reply from RNIB, as their opinion
may be used by the bank as an excuse not to provide the adjustment
requested.
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 27 November 2015 16:51
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
Because there is no bleed-through on a decent printout, as Paul Benson put
it, give a sighted person a printout on thin cheapo paper where the print
from the reverse side showed through the page, and they'd do something about
it. Though of course in that case, more people would feel the effect and
complain.
Best,
Clive
If one person calls you an elephant, they may have problems with their
perception of who you are. If the whole world starts feeding you buns, get
your trunk out of their way.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: 27 November 2015 16:39
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
Hi,
But even people with print can't choose single or double sided, so why
should you?
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 15:37
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
How do we know just one customer prefers it?
What about those that choose grade 1 Braille?
What about those that have chosen chip and signature!
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Alex Stone
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 3:31 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
Steve, even so, just because it can be done, why should either the bank or
transcriber be forced to do such a thing just because one customer prefers
it?
On 27/11/2015 15:17, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi Derek,transcriber, the
While it is not difficult for me to do, it depends on the
software they use, etc. Also, it would mean another flag that thebank
would have to hold on your records.Behalf Of
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Derek HornbyOmbudsman
Sent: 27 November 2015 14:49
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
But Steve, I thought you agreed that what I was asking for isn't
difficult to do.
Remember the bank has said if they could do it they would happily
do it.
So they still have-not said why cannot do it.
and the quote you have seen in another message, was from RNIB
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:10 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi,
I happen to agree with that finding.
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 10:20
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] braille statements RNIB sides with the
do
Hi All
Regarding Braille bank statements.
here is more comment from the ombudsman.
Notice that RNIB supports the bank?
Also the bank has still failed to give a reason, as to why they
cannot do Braille on both sides of paper.
Few weeks ago they were saying if they could, they would happily
it!produce
Now quote from bank, to the ombudsman.
"As previously discussed to you on the telephone we do not offer any
customer bank statements single sided. All statements that we
included Braille are sent double sided and this is the way thatHornby
statement production system works.
"We have discussed this matter with the Royal Institute of Blind
People and they have provided the below to our Diversity Manager Dear
Neil, further to your telcon with Steve Tyler this morning, please
find below quote from Steve in this respect.
Reference: Complaint by Derek Hornby re Duplex Braille Statements
It is RNIB's view that the business decision taken by HSBC regarding
the production of bank statements in Duplex form (Braille on both
sides
of the paper) is a perfectly accessible means of delivering this
information to regular Braille reading clients. Although Mr
mayhighly
have preferences around his ideal form of statements, as with all
business decisions, individual preferences and especially
specific ones cannot be delivered upon when handling mass producedprocesses
or template products. We believe that although he may have
a preference, double sided Braille is a standard and uniform means
by which Braille is produced and has no bearing on the actual
accessibility of the product other than a stated preference.
Customers continually express preferences and were there to be an
overwhelming response, then clearly we would need to review
and would recommend that to HSBC.this
As it stands, given the ubiquitous nature of Braille produced in
standard fashion, as well as the environmental impact of reduced
usage
of paper and consequent bulk of Braille, we believe this to be a
perfectly sound business decision by the bank.
regards
Helena Suprun
PA to Head of Solutions, Strategy and Planning (Steve Tyler) Royal
National Institute of Blind People (RNIB)
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