[access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

  • From: "Derek Hornby" <derek.hornby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 21:02:13 -0000

Hi Alison
I don't use online banking.


And the sort of change I ask for, from bank, is hardly
any different to what many others expect.

The bank lets one choose grade of Braille?
The bank lets one choose chip and signature.

And the point at issue is the bank refuses to give
a reason, as to why they can not offer Braille on both sides of
paper. they have said they would, if they could.

Derek


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 8:42 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements
RNIB sides with the Ombudsman

A lot of sense in this suggestion I think
Alison


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Jackie Brown
Sent: 27 November 2015 18:42
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question - was braille statements
RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman




Just as a suggestion and perhaps compromising on what is clearly a
touchy
subject (if you'll pardon the pun,) would you be able to log onto the
relevant website, Derek, and read your statements using your Braille
display? Perhaps this is not the solution you would want by choice,
but
would it be better than struggling with double-sided Braille sheets?
You
might argue that this lets the bank off the hook, but it may also
alleviate
the inevitable stress that fighting for your rights can cause.

Kind regards,

Jackie Brown

----- Original Message -----
From: CJ &AA MAY <chrisalismay@xxxxxxxxx>
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, 27 November 2015 18.21
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question--was braille statements
RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman



Then perhaps I'll bring a case against RNIB for forcing UEB onto me
as I
find SEB so much easier to read?
Alison


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 27 November 2015 17.35
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question--was braille statements
RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman

Don't forget that service providers may be obliged to behave in ways
which
treat disabled people more favourably than able-bodied people (I'm
paraphrasing).

As what is being requested is just that customer a gets access to
the
service using profile a rather than profile b, and as this is surely
a
pretty easy thing to automate, then if a service user finds that the
double-sided Braille doesn't allow him to read statements, then
there must
surely be an argument to compel the bank to make that adjustment.

Of course it would ultimately be for the Court to decide whether the
request
was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case, but I wouldn't
mind
betting that there may well be firms prepared to take this kind of
case on
a
no win no fee basis.

Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Michael Moore
Sent: 27 November 2015 17.22
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question--was braille statements
RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman

Hi,

The term "reasonable adjustment" is probably the same as in the
education
sector. The SENDA/SENDO legislation states that reasonable
adjustment
should
be made, however what classifies as being reasonable has to be
slogged out
in court.

I have a sneaky feeling that any token provision suffices the
requirement,
and the toothless wonder that is RNIB will offer no help!

Regards,

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 27 November 2015 17.12
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: the wrong question--was braille statements
RNIB
sides with the Ombudsman

I think that some are not asking the right question here.

As I understand it, the bank has an obligation, under the Equality
Act
2010,
to make a much talked about "reasonable adjustment" to enable a
disabled
person to access its services.

If a service user cannot easily use double-sided Braille, but can
easily
read single-sided Braille, then there must be an argument to require
the
bank to provide single-sided Braille.

It's clearly not technically difficult, and I suspect that much of
the
correspondence on the matter has not been written by people who have
knowledge of the problem and the ease of providing a solution.

Personally, I was sorry to read the public reply from RNIB, as their
opinion
may be used by the bank as an excuse not to provide the adjustment
requested.

Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
,c;live.,l;ever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 27 November 2015 16.51
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Because there is no bleed-through on a decent printout, as Paul
Benson put
it, give a sighted person a printout on thin cheapo paper where the
print
from the reverse side showed through the page, and they'd do
something
about
it. Though of course in that case, more people would feel the effect
and
complain.

Best,
Clive

If one person calls you an elephant, they may have problems with
their
perception of who you are. If the whole world starts feeding you
buns, get
your trunk out of their way.



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: 27 November 2015 16.39
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Hi,

But even people with print can't choose single or double sided, so
why
should you?

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: 644(0(1438-742286
Mob: 644(0(7956-334938
Fax: 644(0(1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 15.37
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

How do we know just one customer prefers it?

What about those that choose grade 1 Braille?

What about those that have chosen chip and signature!
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of
Alex Stone
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 3.31 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Steve, even so, just because it can be done, why should either the
bank or
transcriber be forced to do such a thing just because one customer
prefers
it?

On 27/11/2015 15.17, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi Derek,

While it is not difficult for me to do, it depends on the
transcriber, the
software they use, etc. Also, it would mean another flag that the
bank
would have to hold on your records.

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: 644(0(1438-742286
Mob: 644(0(7956-334938
Fax: 644(0(1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 14.49
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

But Steve, I thought you agreed that what I was asking for isn't

difficult to do.

Remember the bank has said if they could do it they would
happily
do it.

So they still have-not said why cannot do it.

and the quote you have seen in another message, was from RNIB



Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2.10 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Hi,

I happen to agree with that finding.

All the best

Steve

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: 644(0(1438-742286
Mob: 644(0(7956-334938
Fax: 644(0(1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 10.20
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman

Hi All
Regarding Braille bank statements.

here is more comment from the ombudsman.
Notice that RNIB supports the bank?
Also the bank has still failed to give a reason, as to why they

cannot do Braille on both sides of paper.
Few weeks ago they were saying if they could, they would happily
do
it!

Now quote from bank, to the ombudsman.


"Z previously discussed to you on the telephone we do not offer
any
customer bank statements single sided. All statements that we
produce
included Braille are sent double sided and this is the way that
statement production system works.

"We have discussed this matter with the Royal Institute of Blind
People and they have provided the below to our Diversity Manager
Dear
Neil, further to your telcon with Steve Tyler this morning, please

find below quote from Steve in this respect.


Reference: Complaint by Derek Hornby re Duplex Braille Statements

It is RNIB's view that the business decision taken by HSBC
regarding
the production of bank statements in Duplex form (Braille on
both
sides
of the paper) is a perfectly accessible means of delivering
this
information to regular Braille reading clients. Although Mr
Hornby
may
have preferences around his ideal form of statements, as with
all
business decisions, individual preferences and especially
highly
specific ones cannot be delivered upon when handling mass
produced
or template products. We believe that although he may have

a preference, double sided Braille is a standard and
uniform
means
by which Braille is produced and has no bearing on the actual
accessibility of the product other than a stated preference.

Customers continually express preferences and were there to be an
overwhelming response, then clearly we would need to review
processes
and would recommend that to HSBC.
As it stands, given the ubiquitous nature of Braille produced in
this
standard fashion, as well as the environmental impact of reduced

usage
of paper and consequent bulk of Braille, we believe this to be a
perfectly sound business decision by the bank.

regards
Helena Suprun
PA to Head of Solutions, Strategy and Planning (Steve Tyler) Royal

National Institute of Blind People (RNIB)

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