Hi,
It will be helpful for you to find out if any other banks are happily doing
what they say, without explanation, they cannot. Then, and maby Richard G may
support or refute this, the question of reasonableness falls out of their case.
That is, that is, somehow, they'd have to prove that HSBC cannot reasonably be
expected to do something which is all in a day's work at, say, Barclay's or
Santander. I wouldn't fancy their chances.
Incidently, when did the RNIB start sending out braille letters in the form of
half-a-dozen loose pages. Are they now cutting back on their stationery
supplies and can't afford the treasury tags?
Best,
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 12 November 2015 15:14
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
yes but they are not willing to consult.
I gave George's details, as well as RNIB (Steven Tyler) but they won't
call George, or Steven.
They actually know Steven because the Braille contract was with RNIB (not
sure if still is)
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:58 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Hello Derek,
...but following George's email about all double-sided pringers being capable
of printing single-sided as well, and the option of putting in two page breaks,
so that every other side is blank, they may not be able to tell you why they
can't do it, but you will be able to tell them how they can. Present it to
them, not as if you are dissatisfied and want to have a go at them, but as a
way of helping them to help you...and other customers. Why not get the contact
name of the equality advisor within HSBC, and present them with: "did you
know..."?
Best,
Clive
Best,
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 12 November 2015 14:44
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Hi Clive
HSBC seem to be confused.
here is the quote from Ombudsman
"HSBC have said it has liaised with its equality and diversity manager about
this. Unfortunately, it advised this is an option they're unable to provide but
if it were, they would have happily arranged this for you."
So as you can see, the manager seems to suggest what I want cannot be done,
but if it was possible then they would do it.
They won't give a reason, as to why cannot be done.
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:03 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Hello Richard,
I would agree, but I also think that:
In the first instance, the bank didn't know that they could do this, and, as
often happens with access issues which they don't tackle every day, they
assumed they couldn't, when they could have explored the possibility. When
providers don't know the answer to your rarely-asked question, how often do you
hear: "Unfortunately, I don't think it's likely we'll be able to help but..."
Secondly, the equality person should have tested the assumption by looking into
this further. In short, it's sad that nobody wants to talk to George about this.
Thirdly, the Ombudsman could have been more questioning, asking each party why:
Why do you need this, rather than want it as a nice to have? For some people
with limited sensitivity in their hands, double-sided braille on fairly thin
paper is akin to print on swirling backgrounds, or text over pictures to a
sighted person; and why would it not be possible to set a double-suided printer
to print single sided? 'We are not in a position to provide..." "Why not?"
Best,
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Eleanor burke
Sent: 11 November 2015 20:23
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
well said Richard.
On 11 Nov 2015, at 19:50, Richard Godfrey-McKay<lists.godfrey-mckay@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
person
Derek, Based on what you say, it seems possible to me that it's a
"reasonable adjustment" to ask the bank to make.
I don't think that the Financial Ombudsman was the appropriate
to hear this complaint, as, if anything, it's basically one ofdiscrimination.
pages
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 11 November 2015 19:19
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Hi Richard
I find reading on one side of a page easier because I easily get
mixed up. So I find when Braille is on one side, it's easier forme
not to have to lift each page up, and turn over.give
If Braille is on both side, I have to read a page,
turn it over, then read, then put it aside for next one.
But if Braille on one side, there is just read a page, put is
aside, read next one etc no need to turn it over.
The main part of my complaint with bank is that they will not
a reason, as to why Braille on one side is not possible. They say
if it was possible they would happily do it for me, but they won't
give a reason why not possible now.one
Also I find the dots are usually easier to read when Braille on
side of page.
If I read a Braille book it's not a big issue for me to misread.
But a document like a bank statement, it's very important to be
able to read easily, the whole details.
I think it's unreasonable for the bank to have this One size fits
all, attitude for Braille on one side.
After all, they allow blind people a choice chip and PIN
or chip and signature. They accept some blind people
prefer chip and signature, so why not accept some of us prefer
Braille in a certain way.
They even allow a choice for grade 1 or grade 2 Braille.
So if they can allow a choice for grade 1 or grade 2 why not a
choice for Braille on one side.
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Richard Godfrey-McKay
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 5:41 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Derek, Remind me, please, why you need single-sided?
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: 11 November 2015 15:54
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
There is a logic to your argument, Derek, but when push comes to
shove, the Bank is acting within the termns of the law; it is making
reasonable adjustment.
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 11 November 2015 14:25
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Steve
A person that is only blind, i.e. no other disability, is allowed
to choose chip signature, even though that same blind person isside
happy to use a mobile phone key pad.
So, is that person using preference!
The point is, I find reading a statement easier when it's one
of page. Just same as saying some people find chip and signaturerather
easier. I do not tell them they are wrong to make that choice.
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Tyler, Steve
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:36 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Derek.
I am not in a position to start a discussion about this (I'm away at
present) but just to note: if this is a preference on your part
than a requirement then I think the bank can justify it's positionin
that you receive information in a format you can access, albeit notin
a form you would prefer (ie,single sided); that, from a dutiesin
perspective, I would suggest is a nice to have rather than a
requirement. In the same way, people may prefer all kinds of ways
which their statements, for example, are laid out; a bank or anyone
else will make a decision based on optimal access for most people -conceivable permutation.
what it won't do is deliver according to preferences in every
yourself
There are exceptions to everything but as a rule I'd say a braille
reader can read braille when printed on both sides of the paper.
Depending on your reasons for arguing the case, you may find
in the position of having to deliver some evidence for your position-
I think that would be difficult to do.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 11 November 2015 11:38
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
Notice they don't want to consult
with George, or Steven Tyler.
Also they say
"don't have the option to print Braille statements on one side"
But they do have the option.
Seems Ombudsman believes, what the bank says is true.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Shaun O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:25 AM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille from HSBC technical issues
That reads to me like a poor excuse for allowing companies to put
profits over and above the needs of people who have a particular
access requirekent in arder to make effective use of said services.
I don't read braille but anyone who reads braille will know that
braille on both sides of a sheet can be problematic due to bleed
through caused by the embossing process.
although havning said that, this is a matter the ombusman may not be
familiar with and I dare say HSBC are either not aware or don'tcare.
and of course there is that rather knotty question of what the legal
definition of "reasonable adjustment" means.my
eND OF RANT..
ATB
Shaun
On 11/11/2015 11:14, Derek Hornby wrote:statements
The Ombudsman has sided with bank!
See below
Quote
"I'm not disputing that there is an option to have Braille
printed on one side. What I was trying to explain is that HSBCone
unfortunately don't have the option to print Braille statements on
side - as this is what it told me. HSBC is required to makereasonable
adjustments to allow its customers to use its services in the sameway
aseveryone
else. Although I appreciate you'd prefer to have your bankstatements
printed on one side, I can't say HSBC must fulfil your individual
preference. The change HSBC has made with its Braille services in
also
opinion is reasonable.information,
I appreciate you think HSBC have provided me mis-leading
but I don't have any reasons to doubt what they've said. You've
choice
disagreed with the idea that HSBC do this to cut down on paper.
You've said non-Braille statements have general information on the
back of each page, therefore these statements are one sided. I
appreciate the point you've made here, however this is HSBC's
exploring our library.
and it may have a business need to do this.don't
Thank you for letting me know that you're happy for me to speak to
your sister, George Bell, or Steve Tyler. But I don't think it is
necessary for me to speak to them as I feel I have understood your
complaint from what you have told me and our service already.
Unfortunately my opinion on your complaint remains the same as I
think HSBC have made unreasonable changes to its Braille services.is
I would also like to explain that as a service we try to resolve
consumer-business disputes informally. We are not here to punish
businesses or to tell them what to do. We have no such power as it
the role of the Financial Conduct Authority to regulate thisindustry.
I hope the above has been clear and helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Salma Begum-Ali
adjudicator | Financial Ombudsman Service
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