[access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

  • From: "CJ &AA MAY" <chrisalismay@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 13:39:56 +0100

You make a good case, Derek, but don't give them ideas - smile! Or they will
start reading books announcing capitalisation and punctuation!
Alison


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 July 2015 13:00
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Just to add.
What about talking books!
Should they speak out bold face, etc.
So what's the difference for hardcopy Braille.

If the change is for the benefit of education
then should talking books be restricted for adults only.

My point is that there are far more talking book users
than Braille users, and many talking book users
are children. So how do the talking book users
learn correct ways to type, print!

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Yusuf Osman
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 11:56 AM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

I haven't wanted to step into this rather fraught arena, however...

I can see the frustration of having to trawl through lots of extra
dots to get to the information I actually want. However, and I'm only
speaking for myself now, and perhaps this won't be anyone else's view,
but I think I would have benefited both from full capitalisation when
learning and reading Braille when growing up, and greater use of bold,
italics, underline etc.

The correct use of capitalisation is really important, but if your not
consistently seeing where they are put, how are you supposed to
remember? I think this is particularly important if you've been blind
from a very young age and so had no experience of print. Memory is
intimately connected with vision, sometimes I am able to create a
picture of the shape of a Braille word in my head, which helps in
reminding me how it is spelt. Imagine how bad my spelling would be if
I didn't have that. (smile) But if you're not seeing, or feeling it on
a day to day basis I think it's going to be hard to remember.

Similarly with Italics etc., if you don't see them regularly used, you
don't build up an idea of when they should be used. I only learnt
recently that it was the norm to italicise the names of Newspapers
when referring to them in written text.

So, I think particularly for children learning Braille, the more
support they are given in terms of understanding capitalisation, and
all the various formatting and printing types, the better.

When I participated in the RNIB UEB survey I really didn't see much
difference in the sample text they sent out. Change is always
difficult. I remember when the old contraction for "God" (Dot5,G) was
removed. For a while I vocally complained every time I came across
"God". I got used to it.

But more than that, if it makes it easier to exchange Braille in
English across the world, particularly getting it to countries which
don't have our technical advantages and so have fewer Braille books,
then it will be worth it.
Yusuf
I've set up a FundMe account to help cover the ongoing costs of my
PhD. I'd be very grateful if you'd consider donating. Thank you!
https://www.gofundme.com/lhj928
Why not follow me on Twitter at:
yusuf_oy
Facebook:
/yusuf.osman.188

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 27 July 2015 11:13
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Dave,

The problem I have with it is that I agree in principle, but unlike
print attributes, you cannot change the shape of the letter in
Braille. Instead, you have to add more characters to the original
character. Foreign accents take two characters before you get to the
letter, for example, making the letter E top heavy when preceeded by
dots four-five then dots 1-4-6, for example, and in a bold italicised
word with an initial capital, the word itself feels swollen. So we
come back to George's original point - let's not have publishers
throwing in everything but the kitchen sink just because they can, if
it would serve no real benefit to the reader to do so.

Best,
Clive



Best,
Clive


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Dave Sheridan
Sent: 24 July 2015 23:30
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Alison

Having worked in education all my life as a teacher and for the last
15 years of this as a braille teacher I disagree with you. I'm in no
doubt that the capital indicator and others you speak of will be of
benefit to children using braille in schools and colleges. I do accept
that for some children they will cause more confusion than to be of
help but as teachers we are able adjust the learning programme for
each individual student.

All the best from Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Jul 2015, at 19:59, CJ &AA MAY <chrisalismay@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dave, I received this document too but it wasn't a consultation. The

decision had already been made.
I think we were invited to comment but unlike an earlier
consultation
about
15 years ago, this time we were not in a position to stop EUB being
introduced.
I can see the reasons for introducing UEB, I am just resentful that
it
has been imposed upon us. The comparison I quote is all the print
publishers suddenly deciding that all the English-speaking world
should use the same spelling and making a decision that in future
all
publications would use the American style of spelling - can you
imagine the uproar!
As a teacher of braille, I would also argue that the changes really
won't make much difference to the ease of learning braille.
Although I will learn to tolerate the changes to abbreviations and
contractions, I am really resentful about the introduction of
capitalisation into adult reading material and all the font
indicators
which are of absolutely no benefit to the braille reader.
Moan! Moan! Moan!
Alison

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Dave Sheridan
Sent: 24 July 2015 19:07
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Peter and all

Firstly Peter, dismissing the UEB code as rubbish without
considering
the reasoning behind its implementation is rash and unfair.
Regarding
consultation, all I can say is that as I was in receipt of one
braille
publication at the time people were surveyed I received my copy and
was able to participate. I can only guess that those braille readers

receiving braille books from RNIBs library will also have received
the
survey document. Add to this word of mouth from one braille reader
to
another then I suspect opportunity to participate in the survey was
there for a significant number of braille users. I am in full
agreement with those who have expressed the unnecessary use of
elements of UEB where this is not needed and George is absolutely
correct that there needs to be clear guidance to transcribers
regarding the application of the code according to the text required

to be brailled. So rather than be critical of UEB let's embrace it
but work together so that it better serves the need of the
recipients
by letting transcribers know about elements of the braille copy that
isn't fit for purpose.

All the best from Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Jul 2015, at 11:53, Peter Beasley <pjbeasley23@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I wonder exactly how many Braille readers were involved in the
decision to
change to this rubbish Braille code? I don't read much braille these

days apart from my bank statements, and , fortunately, they are
still
produced in standard english Braille.

-----Original Message----- From: Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 11:05 AM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hello all,

Though I'm not wholly against the UEB, I do think publishers need
to
decide when they give the full works, such as the braille simbols
for
bold, italics, underline, and when this would serve no other purpose

than to slow the reader down. If I'm studying, and need to know how
to
present my written work, I would want the whole code, but why do I
need to be bothered with the splurge of dots around every other word

when I'm reading a biography of my favourite singer or cricketer? I
also wonder how easy it is for people to get their heads round
excessively dotty Braille when, say, the sensitivity in their
fingers is limited because of diabetes?

These are the sort of things one sometimes wishes one could say in
free-form text slots, but surveys often don't include those.

Best,
Clive



Best,
Clive



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: 24 July 2015 10:17
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

I don't like the changes and feel quite annoyed about the
high-handed
way
in which they have been introduced but I'm not going to take part in

this petition because I feel it is too late. I do in actual fact see

the reason behind many of the changes and although I might not like
them, I do accept that in time I will get used to them but I think a

more relevant petition might be to braille publishers for them to
use
common sense in that I don't want my publications full of italics,
boldfacing and other symbols which just slow down my reading speed.
I also would prefer my material non-capitalised but I feel this
petition
is just spitting in the wind - the decision has been made and I fear

we will just have to learn to live with it.
Alison

my way

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Tony Sweeney
Sent: 24 July 2015 10:08
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

It's a bit like students and the like looking for feedback on IT
projects
they are trying to develop, or for thesis particularly for the blind

in mind and you never never hear any outcome afterwards.

We always like to assist but boy there is a limit to one's
patience!
On 24/07/2015 10:00, Carol.Pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Redacted
sender
carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx for DMARC) wrote:
Derek,

Thanks for this, but we now refuse any petitions because then you
get bombarded with so many messages afterwards. It really got so
sickening and took me some while on occasions to fill them in.

It's a shame really, but there you are, we all have to live within

our means.

Carol P
----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Hornby"
<derek.hornby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:26 PM
Subject: [access-uk] braille changes petition


I thought Braille readers may be interested to take look here:

http://chn.ge/1GD0QEv

It's a petition.



"Rnib: Offer your publications in SEB as well as UEB either
indefinitely or for a grace period.
Offer free UEB conversion courses to long-term Braillists
Provide
better learning resources to support conversion from SEB to UEB"



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