[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:17:36 +0100
Hi James,

Couldn't agree more about c-saw, it's a great system, I wish all the access
vendors used it.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938, 
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk  

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
James O'Dell
Sent: 01 September 2005 14:29
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Hi steve

It's a shame that the whole idea of CSaw hasn't yet been taken on by anyone
other than freedom box as far as I know, freedom Scientific have gone and
developed their own proprietary labelling system which seems a shame because
several people now have to do the same work of relabelling links and
controls.  Perhaps GW will take a more sensible approach.

James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


> Hi Yusuf,
>
> But if you keep up to date in the first place, it doesn't cost so much in
> one go.
>
> But I agree with you about the unlabeled links.  One way sometimes to find
> out, is to look at the IE status bar, or the actual URL of the address,
> rather than just rely on what the screen reader says, but that also is not
> 100 percent.  The other way is to just click the darned link, and find out
> where it goes, then make a note of it.  I do this sometimes.  Not ideal,
but
> it all helps.
>
> All the best
> --
> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
> yusuf
> Sent: 01 September 2005 12:38
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
> Just taking issue with one point here, its not won't update its can't
afford
> to update. If someone has jaws three or We 1 as you suggest they not only
> have to pay the cost to upgrade the screenreader but chances are it won't
> work on their PC so theyll have to upgrade that too. Since a huge
proportion
> of VIPs are unemployed or in low paid jobs where is the money supposed to
> come from?
>
> But I'm not sure thats the real issue. I use the web quite a lot with WE 5
> and the most common problems that I come across with accessability are
links
> which don't have proper labels. I don't think theres any screenreader that
> can handle this and as I said this is for me the most common example of
> inaccessability.
> Yusuf
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:52 AM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
> > Hi Tink,
> >
> > I don't think anyone will get accessibility right, because too many
> > people attach blaim to companies, just because the people who test the
> > web sites can't access them.  Again, you have to take account of old
> > versions.  If someone has Version 3 of JAWS, of Version 1 of
> > Window-Eyes, or something like that, and they say "the site isn't
> accessible", how do you respond?
> > Not you personally I mean, but the answer is that one must have the
> > most up-to-date tools to access the majority of web sites, and a lot
> > of people who own old screen readers simply won't update, and they
> > will continue crying inaccessibility.  So the guidelines, W3C, or
> > whatever, should always recommend that the latest tools are used, but
> > they don't tend to, do they?
> > Until they do, we will never get accessibility right.  Anyway, why IE 7?
> > Firefox is a lot faster, and will soon work with Window-Eyes, just
> > thought I'd get that one in <Big Smile>.
> >
> > Just my two penyworth.
> >
> > All the best
> > --
> > Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> > Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> > mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> > Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Tink Watson
> > Sent: 01 September 2005 10:18
> > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> >    Nothing like a good discussion first thing in the morning. *Smile.
> >
> >    This is a tricky one to decide. I think what you're suggesting is
> > that a web site, no matter how well it is designed, is only accessible
> > if an external product is capable of reading it?
> >
> >    The difficulty here lies with the question of whose responsibility
> > it should be to ensure that there isn't a discrepancy between the
> > accessible design of a web site and the degree of success a screen
> > reader has in interacting with it.
> >
> >    The problem is that to a large degree the responsibility lies with
> > each party and, just to make life interesting, with the browser
> > manefacturers also.
> >
> >    There are standards and guidelines laid down by the Internet's
> > governing body, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). If followed by a
> > web designer, a web site should be accessible to everyone, assuming
> > they have the right technology.
> >
> >    In turn, the browsers must also follow the same guidelines and
> > standards when they read the code of a web page and display it
> > onscreen. This is starting to happen and once Internet Explorer 7 is
> > released, the browsers on the whole will be doing a good job of
> > interpreting the code pages are written in.
> >
> >    Last you come to screen readers, which must also interpret the code
> > web pages are written in correctly, but which also rely on the
> > interpretation previously carried out by the browser. It can begin to
> > look like a bit of a muddle.
> >
> >    What I'm trying to get at is that if each of the three parties
> > involved in the process all followed these guidelines and standards,
> > then any glitches would be removed and you wouldn't end up with the
> > situation you suggested where one screen reader may not be able to
> > deal with something that another can.
> >
> >    The trick is to follow the guidelines and standards and in my
> > working experience I've yet to find an example where a site designed
> > following said guidelines etc. hasn't been accessible to people using
> > any of the common screen reading technologies, despite the different
> > approaches taken by each cog in the wheel. If you know of any examples
> > though, I'd be interested to know. All the feedback and real world
> > experiences we can hear about, the better Nomensa, our company, will
> > be at getting this web development malarky right. *Grin.
> >
> > Tink.
> >    It's a long haul and it will take time, the screen reader vendors
> > being the most reluctant to follow the lead taken by the browser
> > vendors, and increasingly web designers.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >
> >
> >> Hi Tink,
> >>
> >> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective.
> >> If you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't
> >> accessible, does that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person
> >> using that screen reader.
> >> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly
> >> accessible to that same user, after training, for example, does that
> >> suddenly make that web site accessible?  Accessibility is as
> >> subjective as usability in my view.
> >>
> >> All the best
> >> --
> >> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> >> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> >> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> >> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >> Behalf Of Tink Watson
> >> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
> >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >> DJ,
> >>
> >> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content
> >> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into
> >> account how each site feels to use in practical terms.
> >>
> >> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but
> >> am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a
> >> piece ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care
> >> is taken to keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an
> experienced team.
> >> The
> >> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so
> >> again there is good knowledge there.
> >>
> >> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is
> >> subjective though. *Smile.
> >>
> >> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the
> >> subjective part is it's usability.
> >>
> >> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it
> >> is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as
> >> accessible and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the
> >> user to ensure they have the right skills and technology to use it.
> >>
> >> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and cost
> >> of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm thinking
> >> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a
> >> car and you are licenced to drive it.
> >>
> >> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access
> >> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to
> >> access and that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the
> >> reasons why there is so little in the way of guidelines for
> >> usability, although the WCAG metnioned above do sway a little in that
> >> direction as you near the Priority
> >> 3 level checkpoints.
> >>
> >> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information
> >> about sites that have special offers online, but not available over
> >> the phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use,
> >> Companies that make special offers or discounts to people with
> >> disabilities, in fact anything that focuses on the whole area of
> >> disability, web sites, iscounts and so forth.
> >>
> >> Tink.
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >> Behalf Of Dj Paddy
> >> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
> >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >> Hi Tink.
> >>
> >> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
> >>
> >> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
> >>
> >> Will you refer to W3C?
> >>
> >> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that,
> >> "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of
> >> knowledge, (I don't personally believe training is always the answer
> >> , although this is something that can help but I don't believe it's
> >> called for as much as it's
> >> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the
> >> end user is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often
> >> due to them not having the skills for whatever reason to use their
> >> adaptive/mainstream and general operating system to it' sfull
> >> capacity to gain access.
> >>
> >> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a
> >> website or few I suppose?
> >>
> >> Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in
> >> their entirety.
> >>
> >> N'ways why not include
> >>
> >> www.thinkgeek.com
> >>
> >> www.paypal.co.uk
> >>
> >> www.google.com (.co.uk)
> >>
> >> My hosting company
> >>
> >> www.dhosting.co.uk
> >>
> >> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
> >>
> >> www.ebay.co.uk
> >>
> >> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms
> >> on instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in
> >> place but paypal that they push and partner with do?
> >>
> >> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few
> >> weeks and was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my
> >> email address for me because of the graphical auth system.
> >>
> >> I could go on....
> >>
> >> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and
> >> even the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
> >>
> >> Dj Paddy
> >> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans
> >> of Java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the
> >> shaking becomes a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
> >> motion."
> >> -- Popular Usenet Sig
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
> >> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Good afternoon,
> >>>
> >>>    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch
> >>> program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really
> >>> good accessible web sites.
> >>>
> >>>    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still
> >>> something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are
> >>> shops
> >>
> >>> online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
> >>>
> >>>    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories
> >>> that is easy to use, that would be great:
> >>>
> >>> Travel
> >>> CD's etc
> >>> Food Supermarkets
> >>> Finance,Insurance
> >>> Entertainment
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an
> >>> effort
> >>
> >>> or who have taken steps in the right direction.
> >>>
> >>>    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel
> >>> others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Tink.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://www.tink.co.uk/
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> >>
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Follow-Ups:
- [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
  - From: Ray's Home
References:
- [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
  - From: James O'Dell
[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

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