[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:53:31 +0100
Hi Tink,

Trouble is, there are people with influence saying these sites are
inaccessible, due to their lack of competence, so other people believe them.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938, 
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk  

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Tink Watson
Sent: 01 September 2005 10:25
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Kevin,

    I think you're absolutely right when you say that sites are not always
as inaccessible as people believe them to be, but that leads to the
supposition that it isn't the accessibility of the web site that is
subjective, but the degree of competence displayed by the user that is.

Tink.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


> hi steve, agreed totally! i get fed up with people screaming about
> inaccessible websites, and blaming the company whose site it is. has it 
> not
> ever occurred to someone, "hang on, maybe i'm the problem here?" not only 
> do
> different screen readers perform differently with the same sites, but
> different versions of the same SR do. it's just too easy to blame someone
> else for a website you struggle with instead of admitting that maybe your
> not using your access technology to the best of it's ability. and no i'm 
> not
> saying all websites are accessible, i just don't think there's as many
> *inaccessible* sites as people seem to claim. buyt this is all subjective
> and down to personal opinion, which is why i don't think the whole website
> accessibility thing will ever be nailed down.
> Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list
> contact me via email/msn:
> kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
>> Hi Tink,
>>
>> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective.  If
>> you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't accessible, does
>> that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person using that screen 
>> reader.
>> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly accessible to
>> that same user, after training, for example, does that suddenly make that
>> web site accessible?  Accessibility is as subjective as usability in my
>> view.
>>
>> All the best
>> --
>> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
>> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
>> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
>> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of
>> Tink Watson
>> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>> DJ,
>>
>> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content
>> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into account 
>> how
>> each site feels to use in practical terms.
>>
>> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but
>> am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a piece
>> ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care is taken to
>> keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an experienced team.
> The
>> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so again
>> there is good knowledge there.
>>
>> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is
>> subjective though. *Smile.
>>
>> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the
>> subjective part is it's usability.
>>
>> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it
>> is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as 
>> accessible
>> and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the user to ensure
> they
>> have the right skills and technology to use it.
>>
>> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and
>> cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm thinking
>> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a car
>> and you are licenced to drive it.
>>
>> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access
>> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to access 
>> and
>> that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the reasons why
> there
>> is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although the WCAG
>> metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near the
> Priority
>> 3 level checkpoints.
>>
>> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information
>> about sites that have special offers online, but not available over the
>> phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use, Companies
>> that make special offers or discounts to people with disabilities, in 
>> fact
>> anything that focuses on the whole area of disability, web sites, 
>> iscounts
>> and so forth.
>>
>> Tink.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of
>> Dj Paddy
>> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>> Hi Tink.
>>
>> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
>>
>> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
>>
>> Will you refer to W3C?
>>
>> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that,
>> "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of knowledge, (I
>> don't personally believe training is always the answer , although this is
>> something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as much as
> it's
>> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the end
> user
>> is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often due to them not
>> having the skills for whatever reason to use their adaptive/mainstream 
>> and
>> general operating system to it' sfull capacity to gain access.
>>
>> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a website 
>> or
>> few I suppose?
>>
>> Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in their
>> entirety.
>>
>> N'ways why not include
>>
>> www.thinkgeek.com
>>
>> www.paypal.co.uk
>>
>> www.google.com (.co.uk)
>>
>> My hosting company
>>
>> www.dhosting.co.uk
>>
>> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
>>
>> www.ebay.co.uk
>>
>> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms on
>> instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in place 
>> but
>> paypal that they push and partner with do?
>>
>> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few weeks
> and
>> was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email address for
> me
>> because of the graphical auth system.
>>
>> I could go on....
>>
>> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and even
>> the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
>>
>> Dj Paddy
>> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of
> Java
>> that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking
> becomes
>> a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
>> -- Popular Usenet Sig
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
>> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>>
>> > Good afternoon,
>> >
>> >    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch
>> > program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really good
>> > accessible web sites.
>> >
>> >    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still
>> > something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are
>> > shops
>>
>> > online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
>> >
>> >    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories
>> > that is easy to use, that would be great:
>> >
>> > Travel
>> > CD's etc
>> > Food Supermarkets
>> > Finance,Insurance
>> > Entertainment
>> >
>> >
>> >    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an
>> > effort
>>
>> > or who have taken steps in the right direction.
>> >
>> >    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel
>> > others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Tink.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://www.tink.co.uk/
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>> >
>>
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Follow-Ups:
- [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
  - From: Tink Watson
- [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
  - From: Catherine Turner
References:
- [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
  - From: Tink Watson
[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

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