[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

  • From: "James O'Dell" <jamesodell@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:43:50 +0100

Hi Tink

Although I don't have much direct experience of web design, I'm a bit
sceptical of some of what I would interpret as the great panick over
accessibility by the great and good of the blindness industry, and the
over-emphasis on training and on products which claim to "replace" Windows.
However, I guess we have to remember that website accessibility is not just
a blindness issue.  As blind people we are lucky that a lot of the issues we
face on websites can be remedied, or at least addressed, by all sorts of
sophisticated software.  People who have no access to, or do not need, such
a heavily customised interface to the web have just as much of a right to
access websites, and I guess this is particularlywhere good coding is
important.

James
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


> DJ,
>
>     Somehow I always manage to start these things. *Rueful grin.
>
>     You're right though, accessibility is enabling access to something,
> usability is how easy that access actually is.
>
>
> Tink.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:46 AM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
> > Agreed fellas.
> >
> > I'm as happy as the next guy to have things straight forward but the
> > accessibility sword is wealded too quickly online.
> >
> > User friendly would be a better term IMHO.
> >
> > This kind of thing happens all th etime with the mention of the word
> > accessible.  What it's definition is and conatations are quite different
> > from person to person or group to group.
> >
> > To me if I can use something it's accessible.  If I need to make
> > adaptations or learn an alternative route to access the object it's
> > accessible.
> >
> > If it's working out of the box to use a phrase common these days to me
> > that's user friendly.
> >
> > Regardless of who those users are.
> >
> > Not to be-labour the point but.... smiles
> >
> > Tink, see what you've started!  *wink*
> >
> > but I do honestly think it's an important issue.
> >
> > And one that needs to be taken quite serious before labelling a site
> > accessible or inaccessible.  We see daily nonsense ideas and standards
> > being developed in both VI communitys/organisations and the mainstreams
> > perspectives are being formed on when something is and isn't accessible.
> > There was a guy in the states tha tlost his sight and some company I
think
> > it was FS sponsored to have his house fully talking, gadgets told him
> > where he was in his own home!
> >
> > But going back to technology and I'll close with another site I find
both,
> > user friendly and accessible and also pretty cool.  smiles
> >
> > Two examples of differing opinions on accessibility.
> >
> > There is this mind set (To be fair I see it more in the JAWS user group
so
> > I'll use them as an example).
> >
> > Of there must be scripts for a program before it can be used.  I've
> > sortive stepped a bit away from direct involvement from the assistive
> > technology world in terms of lists like this for the past yer or so but
I
> > remember seeing posts immediately to the effect of,
> >
> > "Are there jaws scripts for it?"
> >
> > Once a handy bit of software was mentioned on an email list.
> >
> > People are of the opinion that special adaptations must immediately be
> > made before even researching a piece of software let alone trying it
out!
> >
> > For example.  There are Jaws scripts for the popular voice chat client
> > Ventrilo.
> >
> > www.ventrilo.com
> >
> > I personally do not use these as I feel quite comofrtable using my jaws
or
> > window eyes mouse cursors and/or application keys to do what I want.  I
> > don't require the extra novelties that the scripts provide me with in
one
> > or two keystrokes.  I don't begrudge nor judge anyone who does.
However,
> > to both of us the program is "accessible".  It may be more user friendly
> > to one though with the scripts.
> >
> > Another example.
> >
> > The Archos units with the Rockbox firmware on it and it's Voice UI
plugin.
> >
> > Mainstream product, with a bit of thought given to organisation of
> > directorys and files and very simple memorising of keystrokes can be
> > accessed without th eVoice UI just fine.  I did for several years.
> >
> > I think what we may be talking about when it really comes down to
> > accessibility is the want or need for the same level of access as peers.
> >
> > This I believe is the real subjective issue.
> >
> > Anyways after that blather here's Dj Paddy's cool site of the day, a
play
> > of Kim Komando's cool site if you will.
> >
> > grin
> >
> > It's one of my favourite podcasts in tech.
> >
> > this WEEK in TECH | Your first podcast of the week is the last word in
> > tech
> >
> > Hosted by some very high profile guys in tech.
> >
> > Steve Gibson from grc.com and Leo Le-port from CNET's Tech TV
> >
> > Prepare yourself for Leo's cheesie tones, smiles.  But he's a good guy.
> >
> > this WEEK in TECH | Your first podcast of the week is the last word in
> > tech
> >
> >
> > http://thisweekintech.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > Dj Paddy
> > "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
> > It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
> > The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
> > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
> > -- Popular Usenet Sig
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:12 AM
> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >
> >
> >> hi steve, agreed totally! i get fed up with people screaming about
> >> inaccessible websites, and blaming the company whose site it is. has it
> >> not
> >> ever occurred to someone, "hang on, maybe i'm the problem here?" not
only
> >> do
> >> different screen readers perform differently with the same sites, but
> >> different versions of the same SR do. it's just too easy to blame
someone
> >> else for a website you struggle with instead of admitting that maybe
your
> >> not using your access technology to the best of it's ability. and no
i'm
> >> not
> >> saying all websites are accessible, i just don't think there's as many
> >> *inaccessible* sites as people seem to claim. buyt this is all
subjective
> >> and down to personal opinion, which is why i don't think the whole
> >> website
> >> accessibility thing will ever be nailed down.
> >> Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list
> >> contact me via email/msn:
> >> kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Tink,
> >>>
> >>> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective.
> >>> If
> >>> you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't accessible,
does
> >>> that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person using that screen
> >>> reader.
> >>> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly accessible
> >>> to
> >>> that same user, after training, for example, does that suddenly make
> >>> that
> >>> web site accessible?  Accessibility is as subjective as usability in
my
> >>> view.
> >>>
> >>> All the best
> >>> --
> >>> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> >>> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> >>> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> >>> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
> >> Of
> >>> Tink Watson
> >>> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
> >>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>>
> >>> DJ,
> >>>
> >>> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content
> >>> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into account
> >>> how
> >>> each site feels to use in practical terms.
> >>>
> >>> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but
> >>> am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a
piece
> >>> ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care is taken
> >>> to
> >>> keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an experienced
team.
> >> The
> >>> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so
again
> >>> there is good knowledge there.
> >>>
> >>> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is
> >>> subjective though. *Smile.
> >>>
> >>> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the
> >>> subjective part is it's usability.
> >>>
> >>> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it
> >>> is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as
> >>> accessible
> >>> and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the user to ensure
> >> they
> >>> have the right skills and technology to use it.
> >>>
> >>> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and
> >>> cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm
thinking
> >>> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a
> >>> car
> >>> and you are licenced to drive it.
> >>>
> >>> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access
> >>> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to access
> >>> and
> >>> that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the reasons why
> >> there
> >>> is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although the WCAG
> >>> metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near the
> >> Priority
> >>> 3 level checkpoints.
> >>>
> >>> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information
> >>> about sites that have special offers online, but not available over
the
> >>> phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use,
Companies
> >>> that make special offers or discounts to people with disabilities, in
> >>> fact
> >>> anything that focuses on the whole area of disability, web sites,
> >>> iscounts
> >>> and so forth.
> >>>
> >>> Tink.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
> >> Of
> >>> Dj Paddy
> >>> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
> >>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>>
> >>> Hi Tink.
> >>>
> >>> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
> >>>
> >>> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
> >>>
> >>> Will you refer to W3C?
> >>>
> >>> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that,
> >>> "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of knowledge,
> >>> (I
> >>> don't personally believe training is always the answer , although this
> >>> is
> >>> something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as much as
> >> it's
> >>> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the
end
> >> user
> >>> is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often due to them
> >>> not
> >>> having the skills for whatever reason to use their adaptive/mainstream
> >>> and
> >>> general operating system to it' sfull capacity to gain access.
> >>>
> >>> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a
website
> >>> or
> >>> few I suppose?
> >>>
> >>> Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in
their
> >>> entirety.
> >>>
> >>> N'ways why not include
> >>>
> >>> www.thinkgeek.com
> >>>
> >>> www.paypal.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> www.google.com (.co.uk)
> >>>
> >>> My hosting company
> >>>
> >>> www.dhosting.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
> >>>
> >>> www.ebay.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms on
> >>> instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in place
> >>> but
> >>> paypal that they push and partner with do?
> >>>
> >>> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few
weeks
> >> and
> >>> was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email address
for
> >> me
> >>> because of the graphical auth system.
> >>>
> >>> I could go on....
> >>>
> >>> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and
> >>> even
> >>> the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
> >>>
> >>> Dj Paddy
> >>> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans
of
> >> Java
> >>> that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking
> >> becomes
> >>> a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
> >>> -- Popular Usenet Sig
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
> >>> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
> >>> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Good afternoon,
> >>> >
> >>> >    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch
> >>> > program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really
good
> >>> > accessible web sites.
> >>> >
> >>> >    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still
> >>> > something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are
> >>> > shops
> >>>
> >>> > online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
> >>> >
> >>> >    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories
> >>> > that is easy to use, that would be great:
> >>> >
> >>> > Travel
> >>> > CD's etc
> >>> > Food Supermarkets
> >>> > Finance,Insurance
> >>> > Entertainment
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an
> >>> > effort
> >>>
> >>> > or who have taken steps in the right direction.
> >>> >
> >>> >    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel
> >>> > others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks,
> >>> > Tink.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > http://www.tink.co.uk/
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