How can you say introducing access didn't have any impact on the prices?
That's just nonsense. It's bound to have had, because people have to support
that infrastructure, and Apple do it very well. You don't expect they are
getting paid nothing to do that, do you?
All the best
Steve
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-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Amro Bilal
Sent: 05 July 2020 15:17
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and Human
Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely appreciated
Hi Steve,
Never the less, the point remains that I don’t pay a penny more than what able
people do so I can use Apple products. Introducing VoiceOver to the Apple line
didn’t have any impact on their products prices. I agree Apple products are a
little more expensive than some other products, but this is their free choice,
and here where one can invoke the free market idea rightly, and not when we are
dealing with essential commodities which screen readers are one of them IMHO.
Kind regards,
Amro
On 05/07/2020 11:10 am, Steve Nutt wrote:
But remember, you pay more for Apple products in the first place, so** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
basically they have chosen the model that everyone pays for your screen
reader.
You also pay more because their support networks, IE shops, are superb.
All the best
Steve
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-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
CJ & AA MAY
Sent: 05 July 2020 09:59
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
Yes, I did think when this thread started and folk pointed out that research
has to be paid for, that there are companies like Apple who provide free
access to most of their products.
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Amro Bilal
Sent: 04 July 2020 21:10
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
Hello Mostafa,
I would’ve participated in this thread more constructively if I knew it would
make the slightest difference. As long as MS aren’t doing their bit in making
Windows accessible like Apple does, we will remain under the crunch of the
mighty Jaws.
Kind regards,
Amro
On 04/07/2020 04:32 pm, Angels Desk (Redacted sender angel238 for
DMARC)
wrote:
The reason you stated justifies the cost of the product. You get** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
what you pay for.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10
*From: *martin wilsher <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Saturday, July 4, 2020 11:20 AM
*To: *access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
I pay for jaws because if something goes wrong, you have someone you
can
talk to and say, "is it me, or is the software bust? Reminds me of a
time
when I installed a copy of jaws for that copy to take every other
copy down
with it, nothing would run properly, and jaws was screwed on my
system to
the point I couldn't use any previous version of the screenreader. I
leapt
to system access as an emergency solution and sight and sound batted
on my
behalf with FS who initially denied it was their problem. Turned out
it was
a jaws issue, as a tech at S and s looked at logs of my computer and
saw
where jaws was busting. FS caved in and made the general fix in six
weeks.-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: 04 July 2020 12:15
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human
Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
Hi Jackie,
I'll tell you what justifies the price in my opinion.
I had a serious crash issue with Office 365 Outlook and JAWS a few
months
back. I had the same crash with NVDA.
It seemed to be a problem with screen reader hooks in general, but
JAWS came
out with an update a few days later. NVDA I had to wait at least a month.
That's the difference.
What you're paying for is support for the most popular programs, and
to be
frank, I couldn't do without that support for my job. So it really
depends
on priorities of the individual.
All the best
Steve
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-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Jackie
Brown
Sent: 03 July 2020 17:09
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human
Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
To be fair though, JAWS tends to be discounted at this time of year,
as are
the SMA prices. And if you can't afford JAWS even at the discounted
price,
then you have Narrator and NVDA. I know this is contentious, but we
do
receive PIP to assist with such costs. I know there are charities
who offer
grants, though I appreciate you have to jump through a lot of hoops
to avail
of them. I guess it depends what you consider to be more important
in what
lifestyle choices you make, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I
sometimes wonder what is being done to JAWS every single year to
justify the
SMA, but it's important to me to use it so I accept that it has to
keep
up-to-date with Microsoft if I want to continue using Windows. For
example,
you won't get away with using Microsoft 365 or Microsoft Edge if you
continue to cling to an older version of JAWS. That means having to
pay for
the updates, that's just the way it is if you want to shop or bank
online
safely. If nobody paid for JAWS updates, and there were no SMA
pathways,
your computing experience would begin to deteriorate pretty quickly
if you
wanted to keep updating Windows. Yes you could stay put on an old
version
of JAWS running on an old version of Windows, but your options would
decrease substantially.
If you resent the FS model, learn the Mac and depend solely on Apple
for
your accessibility, thousands of blind people do and love it.
Kind regards,
Jackie Brown
Email: jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
goshawk
on horseback
Sent: 03 July 2020 16:42
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human
Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
since the scrapping of window-eyes by FS, I would disagree, as that's
one
choice less now.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jackie Brown" <jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2020 9:03 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human
Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is absolutely
appreciated
Hi Steve and DavidJAWS.
I agree with you both. I jump to NVDA and Narrator when I have to,
but I do think JAWS has it when it comes to proofreading and Braille
support.
It's a pointless argument anyway, people have to do what they are
comfortable with, and at least there are more screen reader choices
than there used to be.
Kind regards,
Jackie Brown
Email: jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: 03 July 2020 08:51
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is
absolutely appreciated Hi David, This is why I agree with you too.
If you are a home user, or hobbyist, then NVDA or Narrator is enough.
But if you need advanced screen reading, then it currently has to be
What other screen reader for example, offers text analysis? This istasks.
crucial to me to make presentable documents.
I agree that NVDA and Narrator far out perform JAWS in aspects such
as responsiveness, but that is not enough for someone in employment.
All the best
Steve
--
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
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T: +44(0)1438-742286
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-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
David Griffith
Sent: 03 July 2020 00:19
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Freedom Scientific, between Capitalism and
Human Rights, your participation in this crucial dialog is
absolutely appreciated Whilst I am sympathetic to the frustration
expressed here I believe that I will be a Jaws user for the
foreseeable future. This is because I consider access not just a
matter of principle but of practicality.
I want the best possible access solutions currently available on my
tech so that I can achieve the best standard of productivity and
quality in the admittedly limited hours of work I perform. I am
nearly completely retired now but would still urge anybody in
employment who is dependent on a screenreader to seek the full
range of screen reading assistance available. It is tough enough
competing with sighted colleague to provide best value employee
performance as good as or better than a sighted employee without
sacrificing all the tools at your disposal.
I use not just Jaws but NVDA and Narrator every week in a myriad of
Unfortunately there are a whole range of situations in which NVDAproduct?
or Narrator just will not cut it and I need to use Jaws. I freely
admit there are occasions that NVDA, and increasingly Narrator, will
in some tasks perform better than Jaws.
This does not gainsay the truth that Jaws, and especially the Jaws
cursor is required in many situations where NVDA and Narrator both
fail completely.
Just this evening I was having to use a m4b to mp3 convertor. This
is completely impossible to use with NVDA and Narrator. Both the
add and convert buttons could only be found by the Jaws cursor.
So to put it bluntly I am not prepared to cripple aspect of my
access in order to satisfy frustrations against FS. Whether FS can
justify all their pricing structures is another matter. I see no
realistic way that they could provide Jaws for free. Whilst they
remain a third party business and not part of mainstream OS funding
I can seen no business model which does not require them to employ
staff to keep their products updated in a constantly changing OS
environment. An old version of Jaws will simply not work today.
. tiff.
The alternative of using largely unpaid volunteer resources with a
small core of employees to update products is the route pursued by
NVDA, but even here there are costs met by donations and grants from
blindness organisations alongside other grants from people like
Microsoft. There is really no free lunch.
David G.
On 2 Jul 2020, at 22:09, Mostafa Almahdywrote:
<mostafa.almahdy@xxxxxxxxx>
Freedom Scientific is the largest manufacturer that produces
assistive technology solutions worldwide. Nonetheless, it
manipulates this throttled market through base policy. At its
inception, it charges visually impaired clients so high to qualify
them licensed to use Jaws, for certain time. After their license
period has expired, they are required to upgrade, through paying
substantial amount to temporarily use the license again and after
awhile, it eventually expires. You are now trapped in this vicious
cycle. To perpetually use their Jaws, you have got to pay them
money, relentlessly. And, despite what they throw at you in their
unvalued mendings, updates etc, you ought to give them money, with
a smile. Even scripts which are additional elements destined to
enhance performance, are going to cost you a fortune. Now, the
question here shall naturally be, why?
What for do I need to pay all this, to obtain a not so well given
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-People are generically enslaved to this concept. Jaws has somewhat** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
influenced its users to unconsciously pay to keep upgraded, without
asking themselves, um, is it really worth it? Freedom Scientific
takes advantage of its broadly mega establishment to tremendously
dominate more people and trammel them into the Jaws immense delusion.
I fortuitously, have wholly emancipated myself from this grave deceit.
Why am I need to be infinitely impounded to such capitalistic entity?
Furthermore, by doing so, Freedom Scientific explicitly violates
human rights declaration recognised by United Nations consignment,
which plainly states, that equal access of information is eminently
professed to everyone. Thence, I mutually urge firm Jaws users and
Freedom Scientific staff to interact with this proposition. I do
not attempt here to politicise the matter. But for certain, this
conversation has got an ethical scope affiliated with it. I am keen
to stiffen this useful discussion and exchange opinions. I
personally feel so comfortable using open source solutions. What
about you folks?
Do you feel somewhat compelled to stick to Jaws, despite the fact,
that it costs you more than what it actually deserves? Is the money
you pay worth what Jaws offers? I in this undisclosed list, have
included Freedom Scientific representatives, to hear their
perspective as well. I just hope, not to be shunned, disposed or
affronted based on my sentimental notions. I now look forward to
hearing from people, everywhere across the globe. Thanks for
reading, Mustafa
--
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a shoreless ocean.)
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