[access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille

  • From: <Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:04:01 +0000

Hello George,

Perhaps the message to U E B nay-sayers would be something like: Pain is only 
temporary, but it bloody well hurts at the time. In the words of Albus 
Dumbledor, it's for the greater good.

I don't expect braille reading to be as easy for me in the immediate future as 
it has been in recent years, but you learn you adapt, you move on, and after a 
while you almost forget that things were ever different - you just read.

Best,
Clive



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
George Bell
Sent: 31 March 2015 11:52
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille

You have certainly hit one nail on the head with a good old fashioned sledge 
hammer, Dave.

I do a lot of work with 3rd world countries, and virtually everyone I speak to 
there is absolutely delighted that finally they can look forward to just one 
single form of English literary Braille.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
Dave Sheridan
Sent: 31 March 2015 11:16
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille

Thanks Clive, I also feel that if it results in more opportunities for braille 
learners in developing countries, which it's likely to do, then unifying 
english braille is a huge positive. 

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 31 Mar 2015, at 10:06, Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> Hello David,
> 
> Coming to this message a bit late I'm afraid. If the introduction of U E B 
> will mean in the long run that there will be more emphasis in teaching 
> literature and literacy through Braille in our schools, and it helps to 
> reverse the trend in which it is assumed that the computer renders Braille an 
> 'old skool' skill, however the changes affect us old stagers, they will be a 
> force for good. Also, I'd rather see good U E B than bad traditional English 
> Braille. In short, let's get our kids reading again, and get the powers that 
> be to admit that it's not the same as being read to by Mister and missus 
> Sapi, or whomever.
> 
> 
> Best,
> Clive
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of Dave Sheridan
> Sent: 27 March 2015 22:51
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille
> 
> Thanks George for giving clear reasons for UEB. Like others on this 
> list I guess I was able to complete the survey sent out about UEB 
> several years ago. As someone who had, at the time, worked in 
> education for about 30 years I saw the necessity for change even 
> though it would feel uncomfortable on a personal level. I taught 
> braille for 14 years before retiring last year. Along with the reasons 
> George has stated there are clear benefits to our younger generation 
> in education. The only means of identifying any emphasised text in 
> braille till now has been through the use of italics, ueb changes 
> this. The only accent sign usable in SEB has been dot 4, again UEB 
> changes this. I do agree that one should learn in school when a 
> capital is used and for this reason I was against the use of the 
> capitals sign up till now. the 63 braille characters can be used far 
> more effectively as we will learn in time through ueb but those 
> benefits will mostly be experienced by those much younger th
 an
>  ourselves. I, for one, can put up with the inconvenience changes will make 
> to my use of braille for a while if that benefits young braille learners and 
> users.
> 
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 16:45, George Bell <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jackie,
>> 
>> For every single change, there has been very good reason.  The UEB project 
>> began over 20 years ago, and has been no secret.
>> 
>> Harmonising the rules such ALL English braille is the same, makes perfect 
>> sense.  Many readers may never receive hard copy English braille from other 
>> countries, but be assured there is a great deal of material which crosses 
>> borders internationally.  Indeed it might surprise you to know that many 
>> schools, universities and exam boards call for braille from the UK and of 
>> course America.
>> 
>> Another major consideration is the huge cost of producing braille.  You can 
>> purchase an ink jet printer for as little as £40, but even a personal 
>> braille embosser will set you back more than fifty times that, before you 
>> even buy paper.
>> 
>> In the production arena, the cost of hardware is even more, but that's only 
>> part of the exercise.  Transcription itself has to be automated to keep 
>> costs down.  Good braille producers will proof read, but again this means 
>> paying someone.  But what is actually being proofed?  I will almost 
>> guarantee that well over 50% of mistakes found occur in the original print 
>> version.
>> 
>> There is also a growing need to back-translate, and UEB eliminates many of 
>> the issue there.
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Jackie Brown
>> Sent: 27 March 2015 15:23
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille
>> 
>> Hi Derek
>> 
>> I'm not against capitalisation, but I do rather wish Braille was left alone.
>> Although I prefer audio books nowadays, I do still care passionately about 
>> Braille, and have it as part of my life.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Jackie Brown
>> Emails: thebrownsplace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx 
>> jackie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Website: www.thebrownsplace.info
>> Twitter: @thebrownsplace
>> Skype: thejackmate
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Derek Hornby
>> Sent: 27 March 2015 14:51
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille
>> 
>> Hi Jackie
>> Capitalisation, should be  taught at school, as part of computer related 
>> lessons.
>> 
>> One may just as easily  argue that we shouldn't have grade 2  Braille, on 
>> the grounds  the grade 2 abbreviations don't apply for print!
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,  Derek
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Jackie Brown
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 1:42 PM
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille
>> 
>> I'm not opposed to capitalisation, I think it is important for Braille 
>> readers to identify the differences in written language.  I will be 
>> interested to read some of these changes in literature when they come into 
>> effect.  I guess whether I like it or not it's happening anyway!
>> (smile)
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Jackie Brown
>> Emails: thebrownsplace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx 
>> jackie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Website: www.thebrownsplace.info
>> Twitter: @thebrownsplace
>> Skype: thejackmate
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: 27 March 2015 13:30
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Changes in Braille
>> 
>> Hi Derek,
>> 
>> I feel the answer to point two is that it'll be easier to share books across 
>> borders. It'll be a good thing in the long term if it means that more books, 
>> or files for producing them, can be shared more widely and read more easily 
>> throughout the English-speaking world.
>> 
>> As to point three, if you read capitalisation you'll more likely be 
>> able to write it properly, and so your written communications will be 
>> more presentable in what is, after all, a sighted world. The problem 
>> is that only
>> 64 symbols to play with, you end up with a complicated system of dot sixes 
>> in different places to imply that a whole passage is capitalised, or a whole 
>> passage has initial caps, or a word is entirely capitalised, or a word has 
>> it's first letter written in upper case. This is what I meant by the risk of 
>> letters drowning in a sea of additional braille symbols. That's why I wrote 
>> all that random jibberish around the word 'Best', in my previous message. I 
>> won't do it again.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Clive
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of David Griffith
>> Sent: 27 March 2015 13:11
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Changes in Braille
>> 
>> I have taken the liberty of changing the subject line as the discussion 
>> below whilst important now has little to do with RNIB Branding.
>> 
>> David Griffith
>> 
>>> On 27/03/2015 12:49, Derek Hornby wrote:
>>> Hi  Dave
>>> The problem I have with the Braille changes are:
>>> 
>>> 1. The changes were not put  to the vote.
>>> So change was forced on us,  or imposed on us.
>>> 
>>> 2. Just because one side of the world  does something doesn't mean
>> the
>>> whole world must do same. So I do not see why each country
>>> can not make  it's own rules  abot   braille,  given that
>>> each  country makes its own rules about   terminology.
>>> 
>>> 3. Braille,  is not print,  so I fail to understand why we need to 
>>> show uppercase  in braille.
>>> And why  do we need to show boldface  in braille!
>>> 
>>> 4.  RNIB has  akready  started  cut backs  in braille  production
>> for
>>> example  New Beacon  (NB)  is now only online,  same is true for 
>>> Insight.
>>> 
>>> Regards,  Derek
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>>> Behalf Of Dave Sheridan
>>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:14 PM
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Off-topic - RNIB Branding
>>> 
>>> Whilst I agree fundamentally with the issue of terminology the
>> changes
>>> being made to Braille and the rules that come with this are a 
>>> different matter and I have to disagree with you Jackie and Derek on
>> 
>>> this. On the terminology matter, with sight loss covers much more 
>>> people than those who need the services of RNIB from my perspective.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 11:35, Jackie Brown 
>>>>> <jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Derek
>>>> 
>>>> Couldn't agree with you more.  Do people interfere with how
>>> handwriting is
>>>> done?  I don't mind embracing change, but I personally don't think
>>> it is
>>>> necessary.
>>>> 
>>>> Oh dear, never mind, perhaps I'm just getting too old and too
>>> cynical to
>>>> bother any more! (smile).
>>>> 
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Jackie Brown
>>>> Emails: thebrownsplace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx 
>>>> jackie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Website: www.thebrownsplace.info
>>>> Twitter: @thebrownsplace
>>>> Skype: thejackmate
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Derek Hornby
>>>> Sent: 27 March 2015 11:21
>>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Off-topic - RNIB Branding
>>>> 
>>>> Hi  Jac kie
>>>> And now it's back  to school  to learn  the new  Braille rules!
>>>> If not broken why  do they try  to fix it!
>>>> 
>>>> Derek
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Jackie Brown
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:50 AM
>>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Off-topic - RNIB Branding
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Clive
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> There is some rebranding going on as RNIB now has this RNIB
>> Approved
>>> feature
>>>> as well.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Jackie Brown
>>>> 
>>>> Emails: thebrownsplace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>>> <mailto:thebrownsplace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> 
>>>> Jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jackieannbrown62@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> 
>>>> jackie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jackie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> 
>>>> Website: www.thebrownsplace.info <http://www.thebrownsplace.info>
>>>> 
>>>> Twitter: @thebrownsplace
>>>> 
>>>> Skype: thejackmate
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: 27 March 2015 10:34
>>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Off-topic - RNIB Branding
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not expecting a discussion here, but please can anyone tell me
>>> off list
>>>> when the strap-line on RNIB's web pages changed from:
>>>> 
>>>> "Supporting Blind and Partially-Sighted People" to:
>>>> 
>>>> "Supporting People with Sight Loss". The supplementary question is:
>>>> 
>>>> Why?
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Clive
>>>> Clive Lever
>>>> 
>>>> Diversity and Equality Officer
>>>> 
>>>> Kent County Council
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Office: 03000 416388
>>>> 
>>>> Email: clive.lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kent County Council
>>>> 
>>>> Room G37
>>>> 
>>>> Sessions House
>>>> 
>>>> Maidstone, Kent.
>>>> 
>>>> ME14 1XQ

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