[access-uk] Re: [Bulk] Re: braille changes petition

  • From: "Norman Waddington" <normanwaddington504@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 20:43:51 +0100

Derek,

Most have a screen reader only because they cannot afford a Braille display.
In an ideal world it would be better to have both available particularly
when dealing with figures etc.

Norman.

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 25 July 2015 20:27
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Bulk] [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Alison
Don't you think that most blind people don't need a Braille
display as they can use speech as their screen reader
set-up.

Note I used the word *most* not *all*

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 8:07 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

My argument is that until they bring down the cost of braille
displays, they
will have to continue with hard copy braille.
Alison


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 25 July 2015 19:56
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Alison
I don't fully understand what you are saying below.

My view is that one can use an Phone, Ipad, etc to read
books, so why bother with hard copy Braille?

You can use online banking use ebilling
so no need for hard copy Braille is there!

In the restaurant you can use your Phone to access web site to read
the
menu so no need for Braille menus is there!

Why do you think RNIB has its New Beacon online, but not in hardcopy
Braille.

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
CJ &AA MAY
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 7:43 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

I'm not as pessimistic as you, Derek. Until they can bring down the
cost of
electronic braille, there will continue to be a demand for hard copy
braille.
However, I do think that electronic braille will be the saving of the
code.
Now people can access Ibooks, mobile phones as well as computers, it
must
surely mean there is a stronger case for people to learn the code -
even if
they never plan to read a hard copy braille book or magazine.
Alison

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Derek Hornby
Sent: 25 July 2015 11:22
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Janet
I think hatrdcopy braille books will be killed off soon.

Books are far more likely to bewnloaded and read on computers ipads
iphones
etc.

So why the expense of moving to ueb ?
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Janet Bell
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 5:51 AM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

much as I agree with what Mike and Dave have said I think that from
now on
braille books will take up a lot more space than they did before. I
accept
the capital letter symbol should be used. If you don't like it ask
the
Scottish braille press to write your magazines apparently they are not
using
ueb. (joke) Nobody will be talking about this in a year it will just
be
accepted.

Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ray
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 11:21 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition


Before the 1st of January 1971, or whatever date it was that decimal
coinage
was introduced, I was just coming up for six years old.

There was a lot of opposition to it of course with older folks moaning
about
it for years afterwards.

But, I distinctly remember that before the change, I had to get my
father to
count my pocket money for me. There were so many names to remember;
shilling, tanner, sixpence, thru'penny bit, half-a-crown etc.

Immediately after the change, when my weekly pocket money changed from
half-a-crown to 12.5 new pence, I could immediately count it myself.

I have a similar experience with UEB. I am a learner, started about
six
years ago and I'm by no means a total beginner but by no means an
expert,
and I find UEB easier.

Bottom line, folks don't like change. To paraphrase a quote everyone
will
recognise; 'you can please some of the people all of the time, and all
of
the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all
the
time'.

Change happens for good reasons. Language is dynamic. The only
language I
know that isn't is Morse.

Mike

On 24/07/2015 23:12, Dave Sheridan wrote:

Hi Derek

Yes the reasons do matter in the same way you suggest it should
depend of
whether the user finds it easier or not. The reality is that braille
has
changed over time with the last changes taking place in 2004 and
before
that in the 1980s. I could spell out some of the reasons for change
again
if you wish but I did so some time ago and you were part of the
thread
then. What isn't helpful is referring to UEB as rubbish when there
are
clear advantages to its implementation. As a long-toothed braillist
myself
there's a degree of discomfort with elements like the capital
indicator
but I like a number of other braille users am prepared to accept
this for
the advancement of the braille code.

Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Jul 2015, at 19:52, Derek Hornby
<derek.hornby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

HI Dave
You said


"Firstly Peter, dismissing the UEB code as rubbish without
considering
the reasoning behind its implementation is rash and unfair"


Do the reasons really matter?

Surely what matters is whether the new code is, or is not,
easier for the average Braille reader.

As for the consultation I think the point is we never were given

the right to vote for or against change.

Even RNIB failed to let its members vote?
So I suggest the unfair issue is, the new system has been imposed
on
us, whether we like it or not.

Regards, Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Dave Sheridan
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:07 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hi Peter and all

Firstly Peter, dismissing the UEB code as rubbish without
considering
the reasoning behind its implementation is rash and unfair.
Regarding
consultation, all I can say is that as I was in receipt of one
braille
publication at the time people were surveyed I received my copy and

was able to participate. I can only guess that those braille
readers
receiving braille books from RNIBs library will also have received
the
survey document. Add to this word of mouth from one braille reader
to
another then I suspect opportunity to participate in the survey was

there for a significant number of braille users. I am in full
agreement with those who have expressed the unnecessary use of
elements of UEB where this is not needed and George is absolutely
correct that there needs to be clear guidance to transcribers
regarding the application of the code according to the text
required
to be brailled. So rather than be critical of UEB let's embrace it

but work together so that it better serves the need of the
recipients
by letting transcribers know about elements of the braille copy
that
isn't fit for purpose.

All the best from Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Jul 2015, at 11:53, Peter Beasley <pjbeasley23@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I wonder exactly how many Braille readers were involved in the
decision to change to this rubbish Braille code? I don't read much
braille these days apart from my bank statements, and ,
fortunately,
they are still produced in standard english Braille.

-----Original Message----- From: Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 11:05 AM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

Hello all,

Though I'm not wholly against the UEB, I do think publishers need
to
decide when they give the full works, such as the braille simbols
for
bold, italics, underline, and when this would serve no other
purpose
than to slow the reader down. If I'm studying, and need to know how
to
present my written work, I would want the whole code, but why do I
need to be bothered with the splurge of dots around every other
word
when I'm reading a biography of my favourite singer or cricketer? I

also wonder how easy it is for people to get their heads round
excessively dotty Braille when, say, the sensitivity in their
fingers
is limited because of diabetes?

These are the sort of things one sometimes wishes one could say in
free-form text slots, but surveys often don't include those.

Best,
Clive



Best,
Clive



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: 24 July 2015 10:17
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

I don't like the changes and feel quite annoyed about the
high-handed way in which they have been introduced but I'm not
going
to take part in this petition because I feel it is too late. I do
in
actual fact see the reason behind many of the changes and although
I
might not like them, I do accept that in time I will get used to
them
but I think a more relevant petition might be to braille publishers

for them to use common sense in that I don't want my publications
full
of italics, boldfacing and other symbols which just slow down my
reading speed.
I also would prefer my material non-capitalised but I feel this
petition is just spitting in the wind - the decision has been made
and
I fear we will just have to learn to live with it.
Alison

my way

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Tony Sweeney
Sent: 24 July 2015 10:08
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille changes petition

It's a bit like students and the like looking for feedback on IT
projects they are trying to develop, or for thesis particularly for

the blind in mind and you never never hear any outcome afterwards.

We always like to assist but boy there is a limit to one's
patience!
On 24/07/2015 10:00, Carol.Pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Redacted
sender carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx for DMARC) wrote:
Derek,

Thanks for this, but we now refuse any petitions because then you
get
bombarded with so many messages afterwards. It really got so
sickening and took me some while on occasions to fill them in.

It's a shame really, but there you are, we all have to live
within
our
means.

Carol P
----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Hornby"
<derek.hornby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:26 PM
Subject: [access-uk] braille changes petition


I thought Braille readers may be interested to take look here:

http://chn.ge/1GD0QEv

It's a petition.



"Rnib: Offer your publications in SEB as well as UEB either
indefinitely or for a grace period.
Offer free UEB conversion courses to long-term Braillists
Provide
better learning resources to support conversion from SEB to UEB"



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--
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

Eyes-free Linux:
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/

Raspberry VI:
http://www.raspberryvi.org/

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