[access-uk] Re: Accessibilty and the iPad: First Impressions | ATMac
- From: "James & Nash" <james.austin1984@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 15:28:35 +0000
Hi kevin,
I used to think the way you do - that the Mac was just for publishers etc, but
I've had interesting experiences since then. The Mac has always had
accessibility in thir products - right from the early days - but I was not
around then, so i can't speak for that personally.
Your comments regarding employment and the use of Windows are very true - but
just because the market uses something as the norm, does not mean that it is
the best way forward businesses to continue. If they only took some time to
explore alternatives, they might see that although they might being paying out
more initially, their future Apple computers would probably last them a lot
longer. Also, there is a very good reason why many companies do not use Windows
to run their servers - it's because Windows was not designed for that sort of
thing and it sucks at doing it. Linux is generally the choice for many large
businesses deploying servers.
As I said, more and more blind people are using the Mac - some as their primary
home computer and some are even fortunate enough to work an environment where
Macs are used. However, it is possible that many companies in the future may
not use either Apple or Microsoft but opt for Linux. In fact, the Danish
parliament have recently snubed Microsoft by ditching their .doc and .docx
format and using the of (Open Document Format). They have expressed a desire to
run all of their agencies on open source software as they see it as the way
forward and also because they are dismayed at Microsoft's monopolisation of the
market. Competition is great, but it is becoming harder and harder to foster.
In fact, in Germany, I think it was, Mozilla Firefox has outstripped Internet
Explorer use and in other nations, Mozilla's market share has increased
catching up Microsoft.
Interestingly, Apple has also produced Safari for Windows, but I don't know how
many users it has. I agree, there are certainly issues being locked into a
company's platform - but that is what we have all been doing for years with
Microsoft. People really need to explore other alternatives before decrying
them. Apple is not perfect, nor is Linux, but - nor is the All Mighty
Microsoft.
TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
On 31 Jan 2010, at 14:54, Kevin Lloyd wrote:
> It's easy to see why Apple have adopted their approach with VoiceOver when
> you bear in mind that the company did nothing for accessibility of their
> services and products up until the last 5 years. The picture was very
> different back in the mid to early 90's when Microsoft started working with
> adaptive technology vendors to ensure visually impaired users weren't
> excluded from using the O/S and from the job market. Perhaps with many years
> hindsight and riding on the back of another companies R & D then Microsoft
> may have done more with Narrator. You can surely understand why Microsoft
> aren't going to put enormous effort into that field now though with such
> mature offerings as JAWS and Window-Eyes and then the emerging free screen
> readers pushing them hard. That would be a ridiculous waste of time and
> money that could be spent elsewhere.
>
> Apple have a very loyal brand following, much like any niche product
> manufacturer but it's a real exageration to say that there are huge numbers
> of blind people taking up the Mac as their only computer or even primary
> computer. Rightly or wrongly, I view the Mac and most Apple products as very
> well designed and manufactured and marketed even better but, unless you are a
> a publisher or audio producer, it's more of a luxury toy than a tool.
>
> You won't be joining the "mainstream" by buying a Mac because it has an in
> built screen reader, you will be joining a niche group of enthusiasts which,
> if I remember correctly, still makes up only 8 percent of the market. Like
> it or not, mainstream is the Windows operating system even though you need
> some very functional adaptive technology to "bolt on".
>
> In the wider scheme of things, how many blind and partially sighted people
> will use the Mac O/S at work? For those currently not in work, how impressed
> would most prospective employers be if you were to turn up to a job interview
> and tell them you'd lost touch a little with MS applications and adaptive
> technology but you have a beautiful looking bit of Apple kit at home?
>
> I certainly wouldn't recommend any visually impaired person moving over to
> Apple for the reasons above but could understand if they wanted to buy a Mac
> as a second, luxury gadget.
>
> Kevin
> E-mail: kevin.lloyd3@xxxxxxx
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James & Nash"
> <james.austin1984@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:51 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Accessibilty and the iPad: First Impressions | ATMac
>
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> If the rumours are true, then that is exactly what MS tried to do and were
>> stopped by NFB i believe because they worried that it would be bad for the
>> Screen Reader manufacturers. I am all for competition, but these companies
>> are only interested in their bottom line - making a profit for themselves.
>> Surely, if they were really interested in assistinb Blind people, they would
>> sell their products for less and so sell more, eventually making more money
>> which would satisfy them I'm sure. As I've said, Apple's products are at the
>> higher end of the price range, but by including Voice Over they have
>> dramatically changed the face of commercial and AT computing. The Windows
>> Screen Reaer manufacturers need to sit up and take notice because Apple id
>> what Microsoft did not and I think MS should have gone down that root.
>>
>> I am not personally attacking anyone, but I think it would indeed be sad for
>> AT venders such as yourself, because if Microsoft provided their own Screen
>> Reader, that would severely decrease profits. Especially in the case of FS
>> and other Screen Reader manufacturers. It may not be so bad for you, as I
>> believe you sell other products besides Window-Eyes. I do think though, that
>> if you sold Macs, you would see your business increase, at least to a point,
>> because more and more Blind people are buying Macs exactly for the reasons
>> that Lyn and others have given. I am not saying that some of them do not
>> keep their Windows machines too or that they don't put Windows on their Macs
>> - and why not, but Apple has seen its market share increase among the Blind
>> in recent years. I don't know how many lists you are on, but why don't you
>> join Mac Visionaries just so you can get an idea of how things really do
>> work. Also, Do you have any way of actually using a Mac yourself? That would
>> be the b
>> est way for you to form conclusions. I am not saying that everyone should
>> use Macs - far from it - people should use what they feel comfortable with
>> and/or what their circumstances dictate, but at least that way, you could
>> get some first-hand experience.
>>
>> TC
>> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
>> On 31 Jan 2010, at 11:39, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Hussein,
>>>
>>> I totally agree with Ibrahim. It is all right to complain about
>>> overpricing, but how does one recoup costs for development? And if
>>> Microsoft built in a screen reader like Apple and it became the only choice,
>>> how sad that would be.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>> Hussein Patwa
>>> Sent: Sunday 31 January 2010 09:56
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Accessibilty and the iPad: First Impressions |
>>> ATMac
>>>
>>> Wow Ibrahim, enthusiastic much? 'grin'.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________
>>> Have a pleasant day,
>>>
>>> Kind Regards and Best Wishes,
>>>
>>> Hussein.
>>>
>>> Hussein Patwa
>>> Tel: 0789 47 595 62 (UK)
>>> Tel: +44 (0)122 4433 954 (SIP)
>>> Twitter: www.twitter.com/hussein_patwa
>>> Skype: patwaspotterfan2
>>> GoogleTalk: thewanderingwriter
>>> Web: www.patwanet.co.uk
>>> My Blog: http://patwaspotterfan.livejournal.com
>>>
>>> Find me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=510013486
>>>
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>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>> Ibrahim Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: 31 January 2010 07:56
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Accessibilty and the iPad: First Impressions |
>>> ATMac
>>>
>>> Hi Lyn.
>>>
>>> Hang on a second. You talk of over priced screen readers when you don't
>>> realize yet all they can do. Does voice over on the Mac or IPhone have
>>> scripting capability? NO! Do they have Braille support? no! (excepting
>>> grade one on the Mac). Also, you fail to take in to account the massive
>>> selection of screen readers on pc's. OK, jaws and window-eyes are the most
>>> common and at a higher price range, but System Access, NVDA and Narrator are
>>>
>>> either inexpensive or free, providing varying degrees of accessibility to
>>> windows and its applications. With the Mac and IPhone, you have the one
>>> screen reader take it or leave it, and to my mind if you've only one
>>> developer IE Apple who's primary concern isn't accessibility, you've got
>>> serious problems. FS and GW Micro spend hundreds of thousands of dollars
>>> and many man hours developing their products to meet the ever more growing
>>> and complex demands of their customers. Think what you like, but please
>>> don't fall over to promote apple and praise them as you would the lord just
>>> because they give you a built in screen reader.
>>>
>>> All the best, Ibrahim.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn & Twinny" <keanemaniac@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:26 AM
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Accessibilty and the iPad: First Impressions |
>>> ATMac
>>>
>>>
>>>> James & tony,
>>>> well said...no further comments to add after this. Hats off to Apple andI
>>>> know here, more and more blind people are showing interest in Mac OSX and
>>>> apple's built in accessibility.We have been ripped off all these years
>>>> with overly priced products that very few of us can afford anyway if
>>>> government agencies don't provide us with those products. FS, GW Micro
>>>> and all these other companies that supposedly aim at making life easier
>>>> for blind people should be ashamed of themselves. At last now, we have
>>>> choice and as far as I am concerned, (and this is the case with more and
>>>> more of us here) we are going to stop buying these overly prices screen
>>>> readers. There are so many advantages to using the Mac and all of them
>>>> have been listed in James and Tony's message so I won't write any further
>>>> on this subject. but you guys said it all.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn & Twinny
>>>> ***********
>>>> "One day in your life
>>>> You'll remember the love you found here
>>>> You'll remember me somehow
>>>> Though you don't need me now
>>>> I will stay in your heart
>>>> And when things fall apart
>>>> You'll remember one day..."
>>>> (How can we forget you Michael, a gentle soul like yours will forever live
>>>
>>>> on!)
>>>> ***********
>>>> MSN and Email=
>>>> keanemaniac@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> skype=
>>>> keanemaniac
>>>>
>>>> You can find me on facebook
>>>> www.facebook.com/Lyn.33.bordeaux.
>>>>
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