I like eggs, it’s mostly mindset you know, once you realise you can’t stop the
bombers being attacked it can free your mind, so use the bombers as bait, this
allows you to think more like a hunter, this free’s you up to concentrate on
shooting down an enemy, let the enemy be focused on the bombers and fight the
enemy as a pair, then you will use the same tactics as Bart and I.
I agree, that if the enemy split S’s then don’t follow them down but don’t
overduly focus on the bombers, it’s too distracting. Just be near them, as I
said, use them as bait. That’s what the RAF did in ‘41.
Witch
Sent from my iPhone
On 2 Apr 2020, at 17:00, klem56 (Redacted sender "klem56" for DMARC)
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
witch, the bracket is a set piece attack suited to when a particular
situation is recognised by a fighting pair. We haven't usually flown like
that. We did last night when we didn't fly as a Squad but as separate pairs
and twice phoenix and I reversed onto someone sneaking up behind us to set up
for a bracket but in both cases he declined the challenge and went away low
(our job wasn't to follow down and attack, it was to look for the B-25s). Set
piece attacks don't often happen when close escorting because much of our
attention is on the escorting compounded by poor visibility of the enemy
whereas a fighting pair's only objective is to search and destroy, a much
freer position. Defensive set pieces can help, such as the defensive split,
the half split, the sandwich provided you see the bandit coming in. Detached
pairs do give a better opportunity for set piece attacks. The distraction of
close escorting takes away some SA and opportunity. The double attack or
loose deuce is usually appropriate once engaged 2 on 1 no matter how you
arrive there if you are lucky enough to find a single (I know, here's an egg
to suck :)
Recently we seem to have been adopting a more detached escorting role which I
think is far better.
I realise now I'm adrift on what training is taking place and how far it has
gone but I can't be on line that early. As I said, I'll step back and just
follow the plan.
klem
On 02/04/2020 09:27, Lee Fisher (Redacted sender l.fisher for DMARC) wrote:
Klem, the pdf training is absolutely fine up until section 5 and 6, bombs on
Tempests and skip bombing, to be honest there's nothing new there, but.....
very importantly.....
The thing that stuck out most to me and Bart last night, was that klem knew
a lot of theory of the bracket, but had to admit he doesn't get to practice
this! why is that? what is it about your flying that doesn't allow you to
use these simple basic tactics.
Witch
On 2 April 2020 at 7:48, "klem56" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
IMHO, for Squad nights we really shouldn't be trying to be too clever with
the training or even the actual missions. Thinking over the servers we use
we could cover most needs with the Tempest, SpitV/IX and Yak1b/Yak7. We
are an RAF Squad so shouldn't be bothering with Axis a/c. I know some guys
like the P-38 but it isn't in many servers and bombing isn't always an
objective but where it is there are enough who already know it for bombing
(and the Pe-2). We should leave it aside for fighter operations to reduce
the number of aircraft *everyone* has to learn. Even on bombing objectives
at least one of the three fighter types are usually available for escort.
I enjoyed the brief training session last night, scraping the rust off the
head-on bracket. How often do we employ such tactics these days? We used
to train in all of those situations. I get the impression that some of the
newer guys are already getting some training which is great.
I do think the training should be structured. Last night I think it was Bo
or Pod who joined for a quick training session on the bracket and although
told what to do at the merge it became clear he didn't actually know what a
bracket was so there needs to be some structure. I was digging back into
some old files and found a set of 'Fast track' training notes from over ten
years ago. I used it with the young lad who's name I forget but he joined
at 15 yrs old and I may have used it with Dutch. I've attached it. I'm not
saying we should use those particular notes but it shows a structured
approach rather than cherry-picking Shaw where some things might fall down
the cracks. If we had an up to date and relevant version the guys could see
where they are on the curve and perhaps fill in some gaps as well as giving
structure to further training. When training with witch and Bart last
night, witch was telling Bo how important it is to know some 1v1 fighting
manoeuvres ('use the vertical' etc) which feed into pairs fighting, which
Bo didn't know so there was one crack. My notes do refer to my old
Firebirds website (still on my hard drive) but essentially that would be
diagrams like the ones witch recently sent out plus the narrative for the
manoeuvre. All I'm saying is there should be some structured basic training
and progressive combat training rather than jumping in at some arbitrary
level. A lot of basics can be self-taught, especially with some guide
notes. Some of that old stuff we don't do any more, e.g. we've
largely abandoned finger four for separate pairs like last night (not
'squad' flying btw), sometimes detached pairs, and so on.
Colin's collecting the data. IMHO we just need to structure how it will be
used.
Again, just my 2p.
Cheers
klem
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On 01/04/2020 18:21, Colin Pack (Redacted sender bart_56 for DMARC) wrote:
Hi guys many thanks to those who replied, I think from the answers we can
see that people are confident on using different aircraft. Maybe it
highlights that we need to concentrate on a few dedicated aircraft, and
maybe not just what the servers provide us?
So how do we maybe get around the servers not providing our needs at
certain times. Which gave me the idea which has been mentioned before, we
could host a server for ourselves. That would provide us the option to
practice and fly the aircraft we want to fly. So I thought one of the
easiest maps to use would be the Mitchell’s men map as it had the AI
B-25s, already setup.
So that is why I thought I would ask the question I did so to see what
changes I needed to make to the map. Thinking of a preferred aircraft that
56 uses or can use, also we need some opfor, and maybe long term option
for the bomber boys.
Unfortunately I ran out of time this afternoon, but hope to get it sorted
soon, if people are interested. It will give us the option to run practice
escort missions and tactics.
We will go with 2nd TAF B-25s and MkIX’s as escorts, up against either
G14s or A8s.
Unless anyone has a major issue with those choices, they are a good match
up to be honest.
Colin
Sent from my iPad
On 1 Apr 2020, at 15:42, Rob (Redacted sender robinhj for DMARC)
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
If it was a high altitude 'Mitchells Men' then it would vote for P51s.
Some people will say they are not familiar with it but it would be a good
opportunity for them to learn :-) I am not that familiar myself but I
can get it off the ground and keep the engine from exploding :-)
On the other hand, I agree that it would be nice if we concentrated on
one aircraft as much as possible though with switching between Finnish &
CB all the time that may have to be 'two' fighters eg Yak-1b/7b & Tempest.
On Wednesday, 1 April 2020, 13:52:26 BST, Lee Fisher
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Can you answer Colin's question?
He is thinking of hosting our own version of "Mitchells Men", for the
very reasons you mentioned.
Witch
On 1 April 2020 at 13:47, "Michael Colby" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I find what I want and would like gets overtaken by what is available on
the server, how many of them are available at the time we want to fly
and who can fly them. Also, what the bomber pilots are flying and are
doing in terms of route, attack profile and altitude, etc. My favourite
pure escort is not available yet and that is the Spit XIV. The only
German I fly is the G2, as its simples.
We have a couple of pilots who can level bomb but cant do it myself,
although I can tuck in and release bombs when told to.
Talisman
On 01/04/2020 12:52, Colin (Redacted sender bart_56 for DMARC) wrote:
If 56 were going to do an pure escort mission what fighter would it
want to use:
P-38, P-47, P-51, MkIX, Tempest ?
As an individual pilot what would you say from the above selection of
aircraft you can fly the most competently ?
Any of the bomber boys that can fly an A20 can you fly formation and
bomb from level bombing, if you preferred to bomb instead of escort?
Any of 56 competent at flying any of the following Bf109G-14/K4 or
Fw190A8/D9, again please state the aircraft.
Please all answer ASAP, it could lead to some really good fun ;).
Colin
Sent from my iPad
