[webproducers] Re: Need a Flash/web designer for 3 weeks onsite...

Well, since much of this debate is happening under my original subject line,
I thought this might be the time to weigh in with my two cents.

Lydia, I agree with your passion and depth of thought on this subject, and
maybe your hopes about how people should be paid and taken care of, but I
think I disagree with almost everything else.

We use both in-house talent here in New York as well as two production
offices in Prague and Warsaw.  It seems to me that there are two issues
being considered, the first is the practical and business issues surrounding
multinational outsourcing, and the other is the economic, nationalistic, or
social aspects.  I'll try not to mix them up as I discuss my experience with
each.

On the business issues side, it's been my experience that despite huge
progress in collaborative tools, it's nearly impossible to manage an
exclusively outsourced company.  It's fine for longer term projects, where a
well-managed group can make daily progress on a big project and there's time
to turn around feedback and such.  But when projects come down to the wire
the time difference is a real hindrance.

So we have designers here that are in the loop, and have access to all the
core files so that when a client says, "Just make that menu hexagonal and
send it on over." I don't have to say, "Okay, but it will be tomorrow
because my whole design staff is heading off for bed about now. . ."  Best
of both worlds - low cost and high quality for the big production, plus fast
turnaround for our clients when it matters.  So I think that if it's managed
right it's a good business proposition.

I'll add as best I can my take on the other stuff too.  I can't speak to
Malaysian call centers and such, but for us our overseas offices are an
extension of our company both in our closeness to our employees and the
values with which we approach the work.  It works out for us both because
what is inexpensive for us is actually a very good wage for them in relation
to their cost of living.  Their unemployment rate at the moment is seriously
higher than ours and the potential for unethical people to exploit them
exist there even as it does here in New York or anywhere.  But for us they
aren't faceless drones to use, we know all our employees and value their
individual contributions, and we're helping them stay employed and feed
their children.

What I can't agree with is that if I am taking care of our folks, and
keeping them employed, and helping them develop as designers and bring home
a good wage to their family, why it should matter to me whether they are New
Yorkers or Czechs, or Czechs who live in New York, or Americans who live in
Warsaw, or Russians who live in Slovakia and commute to Prague.  Perhaps
someone out there is happy to extend my small business to a metaphor for our
leaking economic borders, but I take a more personal view - the latitude and
longitude at which you were born is irrelevant to what kind of person you
are, and the contribution you can make.

Fortunately, my experience with all our employees, both here and abroad, has
born that out.

-- Dave

-------------------------------------------
>>>>> DIGITAL MARKETING ASSOCIATES <<<<<<<<
Creative development for interactive media.
    212-741-9588 | http://www.dma.net
-------------------------------------------




-----Original Message-----
From: webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Lydia Sugarman
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 11:42 AM
To: webproducers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [webproducers] Re: Need a Flash/web designer for 3 weeks
onsite...


Sergei,

You can do whatever you want and give work to whomever you want.  Hey,
you're in America where you can freely do pretty much whatever you want!
  My reality is what I  make it to be as it is for others.  If we choose
to keep jobs here, then that is the reality.

You cite call centers on the other side of the world.  If you did your
research, you'd find that they are not nearly as successful as everyone
thought they'd be.  Despite speaking American English without an accent,
the cultural divide is just too wide to be traversed.  The same is true
in almost all other situations, unless it is strictly a matter of server
farms or whatever where no humans are really involved in the day to day
service.

Another important point to consider is the proportion of small and
family owned businesses in this country.  Something in excess of 90% of
all companies in the US are in this category.  It's also a market
segment that's been particularly hard hit and the most powerful group in
Washington.  Any politician who hopes to be elected must be sensitive to
this voting block. They are becoming more and more adamant about
protecting jobs as well as many other other issues, e.g. estate tax laws
were changed for this group.  They do *not* want to see more and more
jobs that their companies do going outside the US.

So, out source.  If there's so much work going all over the worked from
this country, why are you choosing to live here, rather than your
homeland?

I'll just remember that although Mindpit is located in New York, it
isn't a company that benefits New York or New Yorkers.  My
recommendations will reflect that.   Your company name is extremely apropos.

Lydia Sugarman
Managing Partner
Private Label InterActive, Inc. / CoolerEmail East
http://www.PrivateLabelInterActive.com
Intelligent InterActive Communications Solutions
Ph: 212.533.3456
Cell: 917.445.8637

Power Networking™ - "Business NOT as usual!"™
http://www.ersvp.com/reply/augpowernetworking



Sergei Kachenkov wrote:
> Lydia,
> you expressing your feelings here, that's nice.
> But reality is, no matter what you feel or I feel or anybody else feel,
> global world has changed (and continuing ..). Communication technology
> becoming more and more affordable (internet, phones, conferencing,
> virtual offices .. you name it). Face the reality: technology jobs are
> getting transferred to immerging countries.
>
> Fanny, MCI rep called me last week offering their  whatever calling
> plan. Guy told me he is calling from Malaysia. See, it cheaper to set
> office in Malaysia and telemarked US customers from there. Well ...
> slightly off topic, but practically same thing .
>
> I have programmer I'm giving him work from time to time in central Asia.
> Person is paralyzed (had an auto accident and damaged his spinal ..),
> but he skilled programmer and brains work well. I bet he is very
> thankful for this ability to work remotely.
>
>
>
> Sergei Kachenkov
> Mindpit Interactive
> www.mindpit.com
>
>
>
> ********
> Lydia Sugarman wrote:
>
>
>>Michael, I commend you for your measured response.  My reaction may be a
little more visceral, but it echoes in a very immediate way the same issues
you raise.
>>
>>That kind of out sourcing does not exist for me.  I live and work in the
US and  I believe in keeping jobs in the U.S. and supporting the economy
here.
>>
>>I have a problem with all the companies that lie to get H1B visas to bring
cheaper labor into this country while qualified citizens are out of work and
I have a problem with out sourcing for the same reason. I believe it comes
back to bite  you in the ass,  personally, corporately, and on a national
basis.  It is beyond me why the U.S. doesn't enforce its own laws to protect
its workforce as other countries do.
>>
>>So, I will gladly pay a fellow American in this country and preferably, in
this city to do the work and hope the favor is returned.  But, in the
meantime, I know that I am doing my part to bolster our economy. Besides, I
like being able to sit across a conference table or a table in Starbucks to
discuss my project with the person who's doing the work.
>> I need that give and take to feel confident that I am getting to where I
want to be in terms of a great design and back-end. I also know where to go
if something goes awry or regular updates are needed.  I've been involved in
enough projects to know that every programmer works differently and it's far
preferable to go back to the same person since it saves time and money over
the long run.  I'm a big subscriber to the "you get what you pay for"
philosophy.
>>
>>Your unrelenting litany on this and other lists about sending work out of
the country is offensive and insulting when the very people on those lists
are the ones who are suffering most from this practice....and you expect to
get advice from them?....really!  How rude of you!  Frankly, I, for one,  am
really tired of your always offering as the panacea for everything  to send
work out of this country through your company based in Canada.  Give it a
break.
>>
>>
>>Most lists have members scattered all over the world who understand what
being part of a community means and have respect for their fellow members.
You seem to be completely lacking in that understanding.
>>
>>Lydia Sugarman
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrey Chashkov wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm just wondering - does it really make sense to pay contractors $65-95
>>>and more if you can get the same level of quality, turn around time,
>>>experience and all the rest for $20-30 working with off-shore gurus?
>>>What do you overpay for?
>>>
>>>Andrey Chashkov,
>>>CEO, TechnoArt Labs
>>>
>>
>
>
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