[wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
- From: Larry Osterman <Larry.Osterman@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:14:18 -0700
Unfortunately I don't have any more information than Frank does w.r.t.
documentation schedules. I do know that the documentation has been written (I
know, I reviewed a ton of it). But I don't know what the schedule is for
releasing it :(.
Larry Osterman
You know the drill:
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
-----Original Message-----
From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 7:07 PM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
Do you know if the documentation and header files for these new APIs will be
in the RC1 release, or is it still a work in progress?
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Osterman" <Larry.Osterman@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
> Unfortunately, we have no current plans to port the Vista audio
> architecture to older systems. And the new endpoint volume APIs require
> the Vista audio infrastructure.
>
> Larry Osterman
>
> You know the drill:
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 5:21 PM
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> Frank,
>
> Thanks for all your help on this - it's very much appreciated,
> particularly
> on a holiday weekend. It's just a pity there was no advanced warning of
> all
> these changes in the beta 1 WDK documentation. I know when I read through
> it
> last year I thought everything with our cards would be sweet.
>
> Do you know if the "new API" needed for accessing the hardware topology
> nodes will be backwards compatible with XP and/or 2000?
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Yerrace" <Frank.Yerrace@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 9:27 AM
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
>
> Drivers should still use the same mechanism to expose meters to the OS.
> The change is at the API layer, not the DDI (as evidenced by your meters
> being displayed in the Vista audio control panel). Applications that
> truly need direct access to hardware controls- such as some of your
> customer applications- may need to migrate to a new API for this level
> of hardware access.
>
> The mixer API compatibility mode that we're pushing into Vista, based on
> feedback from this mailing list (and which has a good chance of becoming
> a reality thanks to Larry Osterman's hard work), should reduce any need
> for a manufacturer to "redesign [an] entire product range overnight."
> Instead, they can make their product more Vista-friendly on their own
> schedule.
>
> Regarding the timing of any documentation release and its accuracy, I'll
> have to consult with others here and rely on them to respond.
>
> Frank Yerrace
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:01 PM
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Even the Windows Vista
> WDK
> Beta 1 documentation, dated 27th May 2005, includes the table showing
> the
> mapping of topology nodes to mixer controls, and there is no indication
> anywhere that this would not be supported under Vista. Quite the
> contrary,
> in fact, as it says the peak meter mapping is supported in Windows XP
> AND
> LATER.
>
> Is there a more recent release of the WDK available publicly that more
> accurately describes what is supported under Vista? It's now only six
> months
> until the slated public release of Vista, and we can't redesign our
> entire
> product range overnight.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel E. Germann" <deg@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 12:48 AM
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
>
>>I think what's most frustrating is that, as developers, we rely on the
>>documentation to tell us what we can and cannot do in our hardware and
>>software. When we read in the docs that the WDM Audio layer translates
>
>>KSNODETYPE_PEAKMETER into MIXERCONTROL_CONTROLTYPE_PEAKMETER for
> Windows
>>Me, Windows XP and later (see
>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/Audio_
> d/hh/Audio_d/pcdesign_fe656849-bfc3-45cc-8931-0c251afe6f04.xml.asp),
>>we tend to develop on that basis. For example, we put input and output
>
>>peak meters on the feature list of future products, and are designing
> the
>>hardware to that spec.
>>
>> This is different from a statement like the DirectKS disclaimer (see
>> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/DirectKS.mspx): "Be
> forewarned
>> that the DirectKS approach is unlikely to work on operating systems
> after
>> Windows XP and Windows Server 2003." We all know what we're signing
> up
>> for when we use the DirectKS approach. But we don't expect our
> hardware
>> and software functionality to disappear when using documented and
>> supported features.
>>
>> That being said, I think we all realize that Vista's audio changes are
>
>> extensive, and there are going to be a few bumps along the way. Is
> there
>> a "white paper" that provides a list of all the feature areas where
> we're
>> likely to run into problems?
>>
>> -Dan
>> --
>> Dan Germann
>> Digital Audio Labs
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:11:09 -0700
>>> From: "Frank Yerrace" <Frank.Yerrace@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>> The mixer API is an abstraction layer. Unless an application is
>>> intentionally written for a specific subset of hardware, it should
> not
>>> assume any particular set of controls exist.
>>>
>>> That said, some applications are indeed written for a small set of
>>> hardware configurations and they properly rely on those hardware
>>> features to be accessible through this mixer API. Users and
>>> manufacturers of these kinds of applications or associated hardware
>>> might rightfully be frustrated by changes like this which affect them
> or
>>> their business. However, we expect that an incredible majority of
>>> Windows applications are unaffected. We rely on releases like CTPs
> and
>>> Betas to prove or disprove this.
>>>
>>> Regarding some of your other comments, please realize that in order
> to
>>> make progress on some of the larger Vista initiatives, sometimes
> there
>>> are compromises around compatibility. It's a delicate trade-off and
>>> clearly it would be self-destructive for us to intentionally "quietly
>>> delete features" in ways that knowingly would have a large adverse
>>> impact. We make the best choices possible with good intentions given
> the
>>> available data and/or experience. Early adoption and feedback from
>>> people like those on this mailing list are an important part of
> getting
>>> this right and I hope this list's membership sees that they can
> impact
>>> what we do.
>>>
>>> Frank Yerrace
>>> Microsoft Corporation
>>>
>>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>>> rights.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:59 PM
>>> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>>>
>>>> Just to confirm that I understand you correctly: you feel there are
>>> some
>>>> applications that will work better if the Vista mixer API (in normal
>>>> mode, not the proposed compatibility mode) included line controls of
>>>> type MIXERCONTROL_CONTROLTYPE_PEAKMETER. Do I understand you
>>> correctly?
>>>
>>> Yes, that is correct.
>>>
>>>> If anyone can provide this list of apps, then we'll have better data
>>>> when considering such a change.
>>>
>>> It's Easter Sunday here, and I won't be back in the office until
>>> Tuesday,
>>> but off the top of my head, here goes.
>>>
>>> "Newsboss", by Desktop Technologies (www.newsboss.com), which is a
>>> newsroom
>>> management package widely used by radio stations, has multiple audio
>>> inputs
>>> and an on-screen display of input levels using the peak meter
> controls
>>> in
>>> the mixer API. I'm not sure how much its functionality is degraded if
>>> peak
>>> meters are not supported, but when peak meters were originally
> omitted
>>> from
>>> the WDM audio model in Windows 98 and 2000, their developers insisted
>>> that
>>> we provide a workaround for them to directly access the peak meter
> nodes
>>> in
>>> the topology port of our sound cards (which we did, although it was
>>> pretty
>>> cludgy). There were great sighs of relief when peak meters were
>>> reinstated
>>> in XP and ME.
>>>
>>> "Plaything", by the Community Broadcasters Association of Australia,
> is
>>> used
>>> by practically every community radio station in Australia for the
>>> management
>>> of satellite feeds. It features on-screen input and output level
> meters
>>> that
>>> are driven from the peak meter mixer controls. If these controls
> don't
>>> exist, the software will still function but there will be no display
> on
>>> the
>>> on-screen meters (which will be rather disconcerting for the end
> users).
>>>
>>> Most broadcast software packages (such as WaveCart by BSI and
> Audiovault
>>> by
>>> Broadcast Electronics) have on-screen input and output level
> indicators.
>>> I
>>> don't know for certain if these use the peak meter controls, but
> would
>>> think
>>> that there's a good chance that they would at least take advantage of
>>> them
>>> if they're available.
>>>
>>> In any case, peak meter controls are a documented feature of Windows,
>>> and
>>> I'd have thought that application developers would have had every
> right
>>> to
>>> expect that they could use them without having them pulled out from
>>> under
>>> them without notice. I mean, none of these changes have even been
>>> publicly
>>> documented yet - we're only discovering them when we try various
> things
>>> on
>>> the CTPs and find they don't work any more. How many other "features"
> of
>>> the
>>> audio subsystem have been quietly deleted? I'm sorry, but this really
>>> stinks.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Frank Yerrace" <Frank.Yerrace@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 7:03 AM
>>> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> Just to confirm that I understand you correctly: you feel there are
>>> some
>>>> applications that will work better if the Vista mixer API (in normal
>>>> mode, not the proposed compatibility mode) included line controls of
>>>> type MIXERCONTROL_CONTROLTYPE_PEAKMETER. Do I understand you
>>> correctly?
>>>>
>>>> You said "a couple." Is this literally about two or three apps?
> Also,
>>> do
>>>> these apps not work at all or is some minor functionality not
> working?
>>>> If anyone can provide this list of apps, then we'll have better data
>>>> when considering such a change.
>>>>
>>>> Frank Yerrace
>>>> Microsoft Corporation
>>>>
>>>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>>>> rights.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:46 AM
>>>> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Frank. I'll compile a list of applications that we're aware
> of
>>>> that
>>>> might require this and forward it to Richard.
>>>>
>>>> There are also a couple of applications that would probably be okay
>>> with
>>>>
>>>> Vista's mixer API except they expect to be able to see input and
>>> output
>>>> peak
>>>> meters, which Vista currently isn't virtualising. Is this something
>>> that
>>>>
>>>> could be added easily at this stage?
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>
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