Hi all, The beuty of Martin's, or should I say the bolivian solution, is that it is also making possible the genuine reduction in fuel use, carbon emissions, accidents and the need for catch up road expansion. This would remove the folly of trying to take up land for fuel production which should be producing food, help to slow up climate change,, take pressure off the health service and the gardi, and put a hold on archaeological vandalism and environmental degradation. There is one slight problem, it would require radical leadership in the opposite direction from that taken by the major political parties in this country and the consumer/capitalist economies of the world, which these days is pretty all embracing. That doesn't mean it is impossible, not if commonsense were to rule, but it might take a fairly major disaster to get people to be prepared to look at the world a different way. We have therefore to push the technical solutions, backed by the lower level political actions of legislation to enforce guidelines. To be honest I am not wildly expectant of a good outcome in this country on that front either. The planning law for instance seems quite clear, but if you all had more time and this wasnt a computer list I could quote you instances, local and current, in my own area, where it seems to require massive efforts by the ordinary citizen to try to get these laws operated. I'm afraid we face a future of continuous struggle at the legislative, enforcement, educational and technical, levels. But as I've often had cause to say to the kind of people we probably all know, who say isn't it marvelous what you've done, if you look at the alternative, not really. How long it will be though before I personally buy a begging bowl and an eye patch and give up the struggle I wouldnt like to prophesy, I have had a bad week though, so I might still be trying for a day or two yet!
All The Best Ed----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin O'Sullivan" <martin_osullivan@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: [vicsireland] Re: the way of the future
Hi I think this problem has either a political or technological solution. Political solution make public transport free like they have done in parts of Bolivia. It is paid for out of general taxation. They have actually reduced costs by getting rid of the need for ticket barriers, systems to check you have got a ticket, systems to sell you the ticket and using public transport has become easier. In the case of busses they have saved fuel because the bus does not have to stand with it's engine running, waiting for people to shove a ticket into a hole or a coin into a slot. technical solution to the problem I would have to agree with Tim here. moving your hand around the screen with only an audio feedback would lead to problems. Most of the data on these screens is numeric, and with numerical shortcuts, this data could be entered quite quickly. An example of what I mean lets say for example you wanted to book a train ticket for limerick at 9:00 on Friday 23 may . a numeric keypad plus arrow selection keys are all that is required. You can use the arrow keys to select the root. Date and time you could also configure the terminal to allow people who know the rout number to enter the whole transaction numerically. example the first 3 digits you enter in are the rout number the next 6 digits are the date the next 4 digits are the time. Because these numbers are derived from information you already know they are easy to remember. you could book the train to limerick by entering 001230520080900, or you could use arrow keys to select the same information with audio feedback. Obviously the terminal would be configured so that you would get feedback if you tried to get a ticket for a train that did not exist. Note how the political solution is just much simpler. On 5/23/08, Tim Culhane <tim.culhane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi mark, In theory this sounds good, but it would be far too slow and much moreprone to errors such as the person lifting their finger too soon, and thustriggering an option they didn't really want. Remember the sighted person only has to keep their fing on 1 spot for afraction of a second. A blind person might have to take a minute or more of fumbling around the screen, first finding where the buttons where (are they down the right of the screen, the left, across the top, in a fancy diamondpattern or god knows what).During this process you lift your finger for just the tiniest instant andyou are gone on to another menu, and you then have to repeat the wholeprocess again in order to find the cancel or back button (assuming there even is one). The current approach used by talking ATM machines uses the phone stylekeypad to enter options. You are told hit 1 for cash, 2 for statement etc.You only have to put your hand on the keypad and you can instantly findthe right button and press it, without having to wait for all the rest ofthe options to be read.I admit that these two approaches might take roughly the same time thevery first time you use a machine, but on subsequent visits to the oldstyle interface you would be far quicker simply because you can distinguishthe buttons tactilely. Also, no matter how many times you use a touch screen the chance of inadvertently choosing the wrong option would always remain. If as you say these public service touch screen machines are so simpleand basic, then why the sudden urge to use them? What is wrong with thecurrent interface? Tim -----Original Message----- From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mark Magennis Sent: 23 May 2008 11:12 To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [vicsireland] Re: the way of the future I've not done any work on public touchscreen terminals but they're pretty simple devices from an interaction point of view and I wouldn't think it would be difficult to make them accessible. Touchscreen terminals like the one Claude describes and also ticket machines in rail stations or bank ATMs basically only do a few things. They present some written instructions, provide some buttons and output some written results and/or hard copy items. They only respond to three types of inputs - a finger going onto the screen, the finger being taken off the screen and some money being put into the machine. That's all there is to them. All the written information could be output in audio as well and it would be completely useable without sight. The finger on/off bit could be left exactly the same and it still wouldn't require sight, even to find and distinguish the buttons. Let me explain how this would work in practice. If you're a sighted person, you read the instructions on the screen, find the button you want, put your finger on it which selects it, it highlights so you know you've selected the right one, you lift your finger off it which activates it, and you get the resulting outputs - some information, a ticket or another round of instructions and buttons. All the information could be spoken as well as written so that's not a problem. The only issue for non-sighted users is locating the buttons and knowing what they are when you press them. This could be done by tracing your finger over the screen because buttons are already selected and highlighted when a finger goes over them. All you'd need to do is have the highlighting spoken as well as shown. So as you go over each button, it's name would be spoken. You'd hear a running commentary of your finger's progress and you would stop when you get to the one you want. This is essentially the same thing that the sighted person is doing when they scan the screen with their eyes to find which button they want, except that the blind person is combining the scanning action and the button selection action. As you select each button in turn, none of them get activated because the screens only activate a button when you lift your finger off it, not when you put your finger onto it. That's the way they're designed because that allows for the highlighting feedback and correcting mistakes. Lifting the finger off would work the same for everyone. So by simply augmenting the written instructions and outputs with audio and by augmenting the highlighting with an audio reading of the button name, you've made it completely accessible without requiring sight. The only downside is that it would take longer to scan with a finger listening to the buttons as you run across them than it takes to scan with your eyes, but that's no different from the situation you have anyway with using a screen reader to scan a web page. In theory it appears to be quite easy, though I'd want to user test it before coming to any firm conclusions. It might, for example, be easy for people who aren't naturally good at feeling their way around a two dimensional surface to miss buttons completely and be unable to find them. Some people are just better at this kind of thing than others because they have better spatial awareness. You notice it with users of screen magnifiers like ZoomText. Some people always seem to miss out certain areas of the screen because they think they've explored the whole thing but they haven't. Other people are just better at systematically covering the whole area. Mark On 22 May 2008, at 23:20, Tony Sweeney wrote: > Hi Tony, > > You might think perhaps that I am being a bit flippant but if touch > screens > are here to stay well could we have some audio installed to direct > us around > them? > > Difficult I'd imagine, but one never knows!! > > Don't like the idea of separate queues for the visually-impaired! > > After all some people may argue that we have had them long enough, > figuratively at any rate!! > > Thanks Claude and keep in touch with Vics & the List. > > Good luck to you Tony! > > Tony. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:55 PM > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: the way of the future > > >> Hi Claude, >> >> "One way around it would be to have a specific counter for blind >> people." >> >> I don't like that solution at all. It certainly is not Inclusive >> Design. >> >> Touch screens are coming (in fact they've arrived), so let's hope >> there is > a >> solution! >> >> I've just been to my new gym, sticking bump-ons all over the >> equipment >> there... Even the weight machines now have touch screens, on which >> you can >> monitor your technique! Of course, the CV machines are completely >> driven > by >> touch screens too. Nightmare. Guess what, even the locks to >> secure your >> kit in the changing rooms are inaccessible! >> >> It would be interesting to hear what your designer friend comes >> back with; >> keep us posted. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Tony >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Claude Saulnier" <claude.saulnier@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:05 PM >> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: the way of the future >> >> >> >> I have emailed the comments to a designer friend of mine to get a >> feel for >> ideas to see what he suggests to solve this touch screen challenge. >> >> I understand from a business point of view, the benefits of touch- >> screens, >> since it is simple to change the interface, and you have more > possibilities >> than without, but I like the accessibility challenge. To every >> problem > there >> is a solution (I hope). >> >> Regarding the train station, the irony is that there was someone at >> the >> counter, but no way to get to the counter since you could not get the > ticket >> to the counter, nor read it if you got someone to print it for you. >> One > way >> around it would be to have a specific counter for blind people. >> >> Claude >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1458 - Release Date: > 21/05/2008 >> 07:21 >> >> >> >> -- >> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. >> It has removed 9053 spam emails to date. >> Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len >> >> >> > > > Dr. Mark Magennis Director of the Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT) National Council for the Blind of Ireland Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland www.cfit.ie mark.magennis@xxxxxxx tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464 ******************************************************************** NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of NCBI ********************************************************************-- Martin O'Sullivan Act your way into a feeling dont feel your way into Action (Gandhi) Be the change you want to see in the world. (Gandhi) Tel: +353878289243 fax: +3538758289243 web: http://martinri.freeshell.org E-mail martin_osullivan@xxxxxxxxxx Skype martin_osullivan google talk osumartin yahoo messenger martinosullivanirl Street address 66 Edenmore Avenue Edenmore Dublin 5 Co Dublin Ireland