(VICT) Re: Task ideas- Feedback?
- From: "DIANNE B. PHELPS AND PRIMROSE" <d.bphelps@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:17:02 -0700
Ann,
These thoughts are fascinating to me, and I must give them some thought. I
have had dogs who carry their wagging tails high and low while guiding.
Often they will start out wagging and then be held high or low in a still
manner. Both of these, I have felt were because of concentration.
When I have worked on protective tail matters, I have not really taught it
as a commanded skill, but rather, something I started by doing for them to
protect their tail. I would do this on the bus and in the car and so on. As
time has passed, as I routinely do this, I find my dogs help by moving their
tails in the way I have under these same circumstances. I don't know that it
has ever been associated with an emotion as such since I do this as a
calming and protective measure and keep myself calm and reassuring to my
dogs.
As a blind person working with a dog, I am not sure that I know about all of
the physical behaviors my dog displays at times in that I find that it is a
certain type of body tension or closeness or aimless moving about which
Primmy does which tells me when my dog is nervous or upset. I am not always
aware of the animal's ears or tail. I might feel a crouch as part of some
fear reaction or a backing up behavior. These, however, are often cues for
me to move with my dog for a given reason. I should think that some of the
skills of a guide dog are the result of making them, for example, fear that
moving vehicle with its sound and heat because it will hurt us.
I actually think I need to read about this subject more because I think
there may be some considerations in this regard to consider.
I will be interested in reading the thoughts of others on this as I find
this really interesting.
Dianne and Primrose
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:50 AM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Task ideas- Feedback?
> Diane and Everyone,
>
> The discussion of teaching the behavior of tail-tucking in dogs has raised
> a
> point of curiosity in my mind.
>
> First, It seems that in many species emotional states are associated with
> certain physical positions or behaviors: for example, in humans, smiling
> is
> associated with feeling happy; in horses, a lowered head is associated
> with
> feelings of calmness and safety; and in dogs, a high tail is associated
> with
> excited alertness.
>
> Sometimes we use these associations to teach our animals, or ourselves, to
> connect with desired emotional states. So, for example, we teach our
> horses
> to drop their heads to the ground on cue or in response to a situation
> which
> scares or worries them. Once they learn this behavior, they can be calmed
> or calm themselves in stressful situations. Last evening I spent about 20
> minutes during a raging thunderstorm asking my Arabian horse to lower his
> head, and clicking and treating when he was able to maintain a head-down
> position. This enabled him to remain calm and manageable in a situation
> which would otherwise have caused him to panic. In these cases, the
> physical act of lowering the head seems to actually produce the feeling of
> calm in the horse.
>
> Another example is that if we have a horse which pins its ears at other
> horses or at people, and we want the horse to be more pleasant and
> accepting
> of the proximity of other horses or of people, then we shape the horse to
> put its ears forward and we reinforce that behavior with a c/t. We set up
> the training so that the cue for the ears-forward behavior is the
> appearance
> of another horse or of a person. Eventually, the assuming of the
> ears-forward position actually produces the emotional state of pleasant
> anticipation in the horse. And as long as the behavior is not punished,
> by
> say, people inappropriately patting and sticking their hands in the
> horse's
> face or by other horses bullying the trainee horse, the behavior will
> become
> self-reinforcing, because feeling pleasant is more desirable than feeling
> threatened or grumpy. (Occasional c/t or other positive reinforcement
> will
> help to maintain the behavior also.)
>
> We humans can often teach ourselves to feel happier by practicing smiling
> or
> laughing, even if at first it seems forced and unconnected with our true
> emotional state. And we can find our courage in stressful situations by
> practicing accessing that emotional state through use of a cue, such as
> whistling, singing, or talking encouragingly to our dogs.
>
> So, these examples would seem to illustrate the principle that teaching a
> body position or behavior which is naturally associated with a certain
> emotional state can become a way of triggering the actual emotional state
> in
> the animal or person.
>
> On the other hand, I can think of examples where an opposite principle
> seems
> to be at work: One example involves the movement called "piaffe" in
> horses.
> Piaffe is a very collected trot-in-place. It is one of the higher level
> dressage movements in horses, but it is also a natural horse behavior in
> situations of high excitement, such as a dominance challenge between two
> stallions. At least when we teach the behavior using the marker signal
> and
> positive reinforcement, we seem to be able to dissociate the behavior from
> the nervous and stressed emotional state. So, for example, my Arabian
> horse
> loves to piaffe and does so with a very pleased and happy expression on
> his
> face and none of the feeling of being about to explode that he might have
> naturally exhibited in connection with this behavior.
>
> It seems to me that teaching a dog which barks out of excitement and
> protectiveness to bark on cue, and rewarding with c/t for the cued
> behavior,
> can work similarly, to dissociate the behavior from the original emotional
> state. In this way, we can therefore teach the dog greater emotional
> control and reduce the unwanted barking behavior.
>
> I would love to hear other people's experience with using this connection
> between behaviors and emotional states in training with their animals.
> And
> I would also like to hear if you have had similar experiences of achieving
> the dissociation of behavior from its natural emotional state by bringing
> the behavior under stimulus control.
>
> Here's the connection of the above observations with tail-tucking--It is
> my
> understanding that tail-tucking in dogs is associated with feelings of
> submission, fear, or depression. So, if you teach the dog to tuck its
> tail
> on cue, using C/T, does this produce the submissive, fearful emotional
> state
> in the dog, or does the behavior of tail-tucking become dissociated from
> the
> emotional state that would produce it in natural circumstances?
>
> When I teach my horse to lower his head in response to a scarey situation
> or
> to put her ears forward at the approach of another horse, I want to
> maintain
> and strengthen the natural connection between the behavior and the
> emotional
> state it produces. But when I teach my dog to tuck it's tail or teach my
> horse to piaffe, I want the behavior without the emotional state that it
> would naturally produce. This seems to work fine in practice, but I find
> it
> to be a bit puzzling on the theoretical level. So I thought it might be
> fun
> to play with these ideas and see what you all think.
>
> By the way, even though this topic may be a bit theoretical, I think it
> has
> important implications for our practical, day-to-day work with our
> animals.
> For example, with a good intuitive grasp of these concepts, Sheila can
> teach
> Gretch to be more confident in challenging street crossings and more
> enthusiastic about guide work in general, and we can all teach our dogs to
> assume body postures and behaviors which can make them less vulnerable to
> loose dog attacks or to human petting assaults. (Hmmm, those last two
> examples--of the loose dog attacks and unwanted human attentions--show
> that
> we can not only use cued behaviors to affect the emotional state of the
> trained animal, but also to affect the emotional state and behavior of
> other
> beings.)
>
> I hope you have fun turning these ideas over in your heads and that you
> will
> share your thoughts with the group.
>
> Best to all,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diane & Raven" <dlshotwell2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:21 AM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Task ideas- Feedback?
>
>
>> Hi Sheila,
>> I believe I first recommended this behavior in reference to one of the
>> guides tails getting pinched in a door.
>>
>> Some assistance dogs have long tails and some assistance dogs wag them in
>> the joy of their work with their partners quiet liberally. With dogs
>> like
>> Great Danes this can mean that in stores and in homes things can get
>> knocked down or the tail can get injured. Add to this that a dogs tail
>> sticking into isles, or stretched across the floor could mean injury to
>> the dog or some one who steps or trips on it.
>>
>> It is not a frequently taught behavior. However, when I mentioned it in
>> my earlier post I said I would share the teaching of the behavior. So I
>> was trying to do so before I forgot.
>>
>>
>> Best Wishes & Wags,
>> Diane & Raven
>> APDT#72225
>> http://AssistanceDogJournal.net
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Golden_Paw_ADC/
>> "My Assistance Dog is not my whole life, but she makes my life whole"
>> ~D.L.Shotwell
>> "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
>> ~Anatole France
>>
>> All posts are considered copyrighted by the author. You must get
>> permission from the poster before forwarding.
>>
>
>
>
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