(VICT) Re: Serious issue with Gretch

Hi Diane
I remember when Keith Labor invented that door technique, and I'm not
real formal about it but I do drop the harness and let her go through
either ahead or behind or around me. I could try actually sending her
around to the right very methodically and see how she likes it. Thank
you all for your concern and good suggestions. 

Sheila Styron, President
Guide Dog Users, Inc.
816-363-3172
sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DIANNE B.
PHELPS AND PRIMROSE
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 3:51 PM
To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: (VICT) Re: Serious issue with Gretch


Sheila,

Firstly, I think Gretchen (whose name I just love) may have that
edginess 
with the wind I mentioned in my last post and may take more reassurance
on 
windy days.

Secondly, I don't know whether your dogs are from GDB or not, but when I

trained with Primrose in 2000, we were shown to place our dogs on our
right 
side to open a door with the left hand and bring them through just like
we 
used to do with the revolving door years ago. I don't know whether that
will 
help you, and though I was shown this technique, I have done the old
hold 
the door open carefully and bring them through for so long that I always

forget to use the new technique. I am just wondering, however, if this 
technique might help Gretchen in that you may be able to keep her away
from 
the door a bit more this way. It is quite a deal when you have your
hands 
full, but it might be worth a try.

I think Sandy had some wonderful information for all of us, but also
which 
may help you with little Gretchen.

We are definitely sending positive thoughts your way.

Dianne and Primrose
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sheila Styron" <sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:43 AM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Serious issue with Gretch


> Sandy, nothing you have written here sounds off base, and I do want to

> have someone smart observe us. So far, it's just been one intersection

> twice yesterday. This morning, I'm heading off in a completely 
> different direction to see if she is still okay heading north. I know 
> dogs read us better than we often think they do, but I am a very 
> unfearful type, and this has helped me build Gretch's confidence in 
> the past as well as that of other dogs. Whether I have met my Waterloo

> this time around with Gretch as you have so accurately pointed out 
> could be possible, only time will tell. By melt down, I meant planting

> her feet firmly and telling me in no certain terms that she didn't 
> want to work. It wasn't a 100 % meltdown, because as I stated in my 
> previous post, after a fairly mild leash tug forward, she  badly 
> crossed the street but didn't diagonal or stop in the middle. She did 
> bow significantly, and this pattern was repeated 6 times. After the 
> last crossing in the morning's ordeal, we sat down together on my bag 
> of potting soil and played somersault in my lap and then walked home 
> from there without anything else feeling traumatic during this outing.

> Each time before administering the leash tug, I firmly and cheerfully 
> told her to go forward which was a no go. A couple of times she would 
> grudgingly take a treat, but clicking and treating did not appear to 
> relax Gretch or take her mind off the big scary crossing. In terms of 
> a 100% melt down, there was one day last year which was very windy and

> she became absolutely unable or unwilling to work. I fortunately did 
> have a little ID cane with me, and the dog just had to heel. Heeling 
> Gretch is not easy with a cane, as she doesn't like heeling or canes. 
> Fortunately, that day, we were meeting some other handlers at a mall 
> to practice escalators of all things together. So she got to have some

> fun with her canine colleagues which I believe helped take off the 
> edge and she was able to work much better on the way home. In terms of

> the techniques offered to decrease the bowing behavior, everything I 
> tried to supposedly line us up correctly, go with her instead of 
> pulling against her, etc. - these all only seemed to emphasize the 
> stress Gretch was experiencing. So I would drop the harness and trot 
> with her or trot with her in harness tickling her back, sing to her 
> and do anything else I could think of to put her at her ease . And 
> this solved the problem about 95% of the time, though she does exhibit

> a slight bowing tendency every now and again but not enough to make me

> feel unsafe. She likes to line up with the curb cuts that are closer 
> to parallel traffic which is a complicating factor in trying to 
> completely discourage this behavior. . As I said, Gretch isn't 
> comfortable around canes. So forget trying to heel her across the 
> street with one as she actually pulls back on her leash which causes 
> my line of travel to be worse than when I don't use one. <grin> I 
> truly haven't felt nervous around the doors myself but have made a big

> deal to hold them firmly open so Gretch would be able to discern that 
> it was indeed not going to close on her. But as I said in my first 
> post, she has continued to cringe/slightly bolt through them since the

> tip of her tail got caught. Honestly, it was a light weight door, and 
> it wasn't pushed closed just released by whatever little spring 
> mechanism. There was no bleeding, swelling or any physical evidence 
> that anything at all had happened, but Gretch did squeak and now has 
> this sensitivity. At the time, I told her she was a good girl and that

> everything was okay, but I didn't make any sort of big fuss following 
> the incident. Now that I'm thinking about it, I also remember Gretch 
> having some reticence about walking past a couple of other dogs who 
> were there in the restaurant at the time. So maybe she was already 
> feeling iffy when the door confirmed her suspicions about the safety 
> of working in this environment. Who knows? I have without a doubt put 
> more work on this dog than I ever have on any new guide, because I 
> wanted to make certain she had every opportunity to follow 
> successfully in Dorian's paw prints. I'm going to give this my best 
> shot, and I'm keeping hysteria in check so as not to make all this 
> worse on Gretch than she is already feeling. I will be happy to get 
> past generalities here if you ask specific questions, and Sandy, I 
> truly do thank you for your excellent post.
>
> Sheila Styron, President
> Guide Dog Users, Inc.
> 816-363-3172
> sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
> Infinitepaws@xxxxxxx
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 7:07 AM
> To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Serious issue with Gretch
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2007 10:27:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, 
> sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: who you can  trust to be
> looking out for your best interests not the next  adventure
>
>
> I want to think about this a lot more before I give a detailed  
> answer.. but I wanted to point out that that is exactly what you 
> have.. when you yelped
> she probably thought you were hurt / scared. Unfortunately , you were
> also
> reaching for the gate, which to a dog is very like a door. I think she
> may  have
> linked the two together..so she is afraid of you and/or herself
getting
> hurt..
> and she may have been picking up your extra carefulness around them
and
>
> thinking that they really are something to be afraid of since mom is 
> so worried about them.. kind of like Alex and the light rail stairs 
> after she got hurt..
> it  was my worry she was picking up on.. same with my horse and the
one
> road we
> had  problems crossing..
>
> As far as street crossings and meltdowns, I have tons more questions, 
> but need to formulate them better.. Can you explain exactly what you 
> mean by a
> meltdown? Is it only the one street or many different streets? If more
> than one,
> what is similar about each.. you said you had used a variety of
methods
> to fix
> the bowing before.. perhaps there is a clue there.
>
> It might also be related to the door thing in that she seems 
> super-sensitive to you and may well read you way better than you 
> think, picking  up on your
> well founded concern that she will bow into traffic.. making her more
> unsure..we might be able to fake it but our dogs know better.. they
can
> smell  the
> complex chemical changes that happen when our emotions  change,
> something we
> cannot ever hope to do. She may also have linked the fear of the
> truck/gate
> situation with moving trucks which could potentially end her guide
> career..
>
> And, I hate to bring this up, but , in your heart-of-hearts can you 
> yourself, trust her decisions? You had said she was being cautious and

> you  were distracted. As it turned out she had good reason , although 
> the truck wasn't
> moving at the time. Bluntly put but not intended unkindly.
> If you think that you can regain your faith in her decisions , I have
a
> lot
> of ideas for exercises to improve all of her issues. In the end it
isnt
> a
> right  or wrong decision, either way, yet it needs to be a honest
one..
> And there
> is no  guarantee that she will remain safe even with the work, should
> you
> choose that  route.. Only someone who sees you and her work can
> determine whether
> you two can  work safely together...
>
> I just re-read this post and it sounds like I am blaming you, I am 
> not. It really is a partnership, and super-sensitive dogs can be a 
> challenge only
> because they are so attuned to us. Since they dont speak english, they
> sometimes
> interpret our actions and reactions wrongly..wheres that dog/human
> translator?
> grin..Combined with a slightly less bold dog, it can really blossom
> into a
> awesome partnership or a utter disaster..not all dogs are cut out for
> service/guide work..I would presume that the school felt she had the
> potential  or
> they would not have invested the time in training her. That is
> definitely a
> plus in her favor..
>
> I like Alex for that sensitivity, although she is a pretty confident 
> dog to start with. I think it is essential in a SD for them to give a 
> darn about
> their  handler..it is part of that elusive combination of attributes
> that comes
> together to make a successful SD candidate..
>
> Sandy Foushee
> Infinite Paws-Abilities Training and Service  Dogs
> Teamed with Alexandra Guide/Service Dog
> Colorado Service/Assistance  Dog Club - Trainer.-
>
>
>
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