(VICT) Re: Dog breeds
- From: "Shelley L. Rhodes" <juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:28:14 -0400
Hey Ann, you may be opening a serious can of worms.
Smile.
But here are my thoughts for what they are worth.
I would not get a dog from:
Pilot Dogs
Eye Dog Foundation
And possibly Southeastern Guide Dogs.
here are my reasons.
Pilot: The dogs, are not completely trained when the handler recieved said
dog. The dogs are often time not entirely well behaved in public. At one
time the school told its graduates to feed four cups of food to their dogs
regardless of the dog's weight. They do not offer any follow up services
even when the call is badly needed, and will not help if a team is in
trouble (I had a friend who had a Pilot dog, who was a terrible scavenger,
had horrible chew the house seperation anxiety, and we could not work with
her on these things. This was the schools second choice for her). Their
response to us was... tough luck, it is her dog now.
Eye Dog Foundation: At last that I had checked, this school does not test
their dogs under blindfold, which I find kind of well... odd. Especially
considering that dogs follow the humans body language and we subconsciously
give signals about the environment that the dog picks up.
Those are my only experiences, but I know several people after being turned
down for anger management problems, bad mobility, and the like being
accepted and "successfully" trained at Pilot or Southeastern. And again
with the follow up issue, have a friend who has bad orientation skills who
was given a "spinner" a collie who would whirl around when nervous, as a
guide. She tried but gave it up and the school did not come out to provide
follow up, insisted on a video that they could "observe" before they made a
decision. (SEGDI)
My ideal school would be one, that isn't afraid to change, may have some
history behind them. use a variety of tack and equipment, teach students
how to train and improve their partnership, provide follow up services
promptly and adequately, have a large stock of mostly healthy dogs, with a
variety of personality types, not consider finances in the application
process, insist on good mental mapping skills, continously learn and improve
the program and offer new programs after careful consideration. promote a
positive idea of partnership, not "we are helping the poor blind", and one
that accepts applicants from around the world. A school that is activiely
involved in improving the world for Assistance dogs of all kind, smile.
That is my ideal school.
I will say however, that I have met lousy teams from almost every school
now, smile. mine included, and some dogs that I have to wonder what the
trainer was thinking, smile, when they paired that team. Smile.
Things I hate to see in a school.
Unhealthy dogs, aggressive dogs, badly controlled dogs, sappy portrayals of
how the dog's changed so and so's life, insisting that a better collar will
make all the difference, refusing to change with the times and new
techniques that are proven successful.
And again I have seen all of these to some degree or another.
Mostly in GSDs though, particularly the unhealthy or the aggressive. have
met now several GSds from three or four schools, Fidelco, TSE, EDF and GDB
who were aggressive, had one Fidelco dog, come barking and lounging at my
golden once at a presentation we were attending for Braille Day at the
Capital, my dog was just walking by minding her business, the owner kept
correcting and correcting her dog, who continued to bark and lunge at mine.
Another dog, from TSe, has had a abit of picking on dogs his size, it took
us two and a half weeks of constant work to keep him from attacking Judson,
and another employees dog had been nipped by this dog. This was the
gentleman's second aggressive GSD out of five he had from TSE and he was
worried, and considering going with a lab the next time around. Another
friend's first dog, a GSD was retired do to aggression she only had her less
than a year. again from tSe.
In the health catagory, I have head or everything from Eplispe, hip
displasia that wasn't caught (am confused by this one), I mean isn't hip
displasia kind of obvious, dietary problems with lots and lots of diaareah
seems to be a GSD thing again, and allergies, sometimes debiliatating, which
I myself have dealt with. Though allergies, frankly I don't truly think are
genetic, and frankly consider them environmentally brought about so perhaps
it isn't fair to pick on allergies, smile.
I do know... that next time I go and train, which alas won't be too far in
the future, maybe next year ah Judson, that I will be asking.
1. Details about the dog's health, if that dog had "dirty ears" or other
allergy related health stuff, we are getting that pup tested right then and
there.
2. training: what motivates the dog, what doesn't she/he like to do, what is
his pull like.
3. Any thing that I don't understand or get, or am frustrated with and know
shouldn't be happening.
Those are my thoughts.
And like i said, no school lives up to my ideal, smile, as I can't live up
to my own ideal of what I should be either, smile.
I will say I am happy with my choice, and they have done everything in their
power to make this team work and it has for now almost seven years.
I like that my school is progressive, embracing training methods, equipment,
teachng techniques, and attitudes as they change and develop. I also like
they don't dive head first into a new adventure until they "test" the waters
so to speak with a pilot program or two, like they have with the blind guide
dog instructor, the breeds they use in training, and the equipment that they
decide to use.
Follow up is important to me, as it has saved my bacon on more than one
occassion. I like having someone else who knows how a guide dog is supposed
to behave look at my dog and tell me if I am devloping as they say "blind
spots' to his behavior. I know he is always improving and changing,
sometimes not so improving (he jay walked in a busy intersection today, was
not happy), also if his harness fits, or if there are things that I am not
noticing, and I can't know it all, no one does, smile.
But those are my thoughts for what they are worth, smile.
Shelley L. Rhodes B.S. Ed, CTVI
and Judson, guiding golden
juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Guide Dogs For the Blind Inc.
Graduate Alumni Association Board
www.guidedogs.com
Dog ownership is like a rainbow.
Puppies are the joy at one end.
Old dogs are the treasure at the other.
Carolyn Alexander
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:56 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
Hi, Sheila and All,
Sheila, I was surprised to hear you state right out in plain language that
there is a difference in quality among guide dog programs--not just that the
schools differ in many characteristics, and therefore, that one school might
suit a particular person better than another, but that some schools are
clearly less perfect than others for anybody! Thank you for your
candidness!
What I wonder is how a prospective guide dog user can find out which schools
are of lower quality? It seems to me that the information in the guide dog
school survey on the GDUI list, and the information in the Eames's book, and
even the posts to guide dog lists, are pretty careful to present things in a
value-neutral way, asking objective questions and offering statistical
information (which is sometimes still very vague and often not verifyable.)
Do you think a prospective guide dog handler could read between the lines
and figure out a school's relative quality from these sources?
On the guide dog user lists, people have to be very careful not to speak
critically of any particular school for fear of being accused of flaming or
liable. When people describe bad experiences with a particular dog or
training program, they often deliberately omit the name of the program, and
they almost always chalk their bad experience up to a "mismatch" or to the
fact that dogs are living animals and no one can predict just how any
particular dog will work out as a guide. And almost anything that one
person feels is a fault with a particular school, many others will defend as
one of the virtues of that same program.
I know that you have been a guide dog user for many years, and that you have
been to many gatherings where there have been many guide dog teams from many
schools present. I have had contact with far fewer guide dogs and I have
had personal experience with only a few schools.
I don't mean to put you on the spot, Sheila, but would you be willing to
offer your opinion as to which schools are of the highest quality and which
schools are of poor quality? Of course, anyone else who has an opinion on
the matter and who would like to take part in the discussion is welcome to
offer their own lists of high and low quality programs.
I do not want to start a free-for-all here where people try to shout each
other down or say nasty things about other schools that they have no
personal knowledge of. I hope that we can state our opinions reasonably and
give reasons and facts to back our views.
It just seems to me sometimes that there is a big secret in the guide dog
world, that the ones in the know are afraid of being accused of prejudice if
they reveal the secret. So all they can do is just stand by and watch as
the gullible newcomers fall into the trap of the less than adequate guide
dog schools.
So, if it is possible to rank guide dog schools (the way colleges or towns
can be ranked), then lets go ahead and get it out in the open.
Just my curiosity getting the better of me!
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheila Styron" <sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
> Dar, I was very moved reading your post and am glad that positive
> training methods are making your life easier. It brings a tiny tear of
> joy to my eyes to picture your dog wagging its tail as you sing to it.
> All guide dog schools are not created equal, and I sincerely wish there
> was more that GDUI could do to assist handlers and prospective ones to
> do their homework before deciding on or sticking with a school. None of
> the schools are perfect, but some are even less so than others.
>
> Sheila Styron, President
> Guide Dog Users, Inc.
> 816-363-3172
> sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of dmgina
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:24 AM
> To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
>
>
> Talking about being your fault.
> I am not out to put a school down, but I did stand up for myself. I went
> to Pilot dogs for training. One of the ladies there said I was giving
> double messages to the dog and
> that was the reason why the dog acted the way she did.
> The lady wanted to make me cry but I stood up for myself.
> I said if I was doing so bad with their dogs, then why am I to go home
> with
> one?
> She got quiet.
> I said I had many dogs in my years of traveling, and I know when a dog
> doesn't want to be a guide.
> This dog I had at the time, would try to tip my chair over just to go to
>
> another dog.
> I am sitting in the chair, while doing nothing but visiting with the
> folks. So what sign am I giving to this dog who decides to jump up and
> drag my
> chair.
> I told them if I ever fell over, they could keep their damn dog. Well as
> I brought the dog home, with all kinds of junk on her neck and nose. The
> dog tips me over backwards down a flight of stairs and drags me down the
>
> side walk to get to a dog.
> She never made it to the dog, but I have a bad left shoulder because of
> her
> actions.
> This will be with me the rest of my life.
> I am not strong any more since I am a diabetic.
> I have to have a dog gentle and willing to listen to verbal corrections
> more
> than leash ones.
> this was how I got interested in clicker training.
> My dog now, I just sing to him and he wags.
> Maybe he doesn't know better giggle.
> I am glad I moved on, but it was sad for me, because I had two dogs from
>
> this school.
> the first one would have done well for me, except her feet were swollen.
> She had so many allergies that I knew I couldn't keep up with her
> treatments.
> They didn't tell me this until she started scooting on the floor. They
> didn't want me to go to the vet with them because they knew if I did, I
> would have scolded the school.
> The vet said to me, as I gave the dog back to them, that they couldn't
> understand how they would put a dog out with so many problems. I knew if
> folks saw the swollen feet, they would put me down for having her
> walking out on the streets.
> I also was told that the dog was out before, but the lady couldn't keep
> up
> with the treatments for the dog.
> I also knew I needed to take care of myself first, with the medicines I
> need
> to take.
> I am glad I was smart enough to go back to a different school. Even if I
> go down stairs to do washing leaving my boy up here, my husband
> tells me he gets so sad.
> He feels he needs to be rite with me.
> I am please he feels this way.
> The first time I had him at night, and the instructor came in to put
> drops
> in his ears, he talked to her.
> She was his favorite instructor.
> It made me cry to see how attached he was to her.
> She said give him time, he will do the same for you.
> He has, but I did wonder at the time if he would.
> It was beautiful to see him talking to her.
> She talked with him and told him he would be just fine.
> Yes I use a walking cane, since I fall much easier than I did, but he
> just
> goes with stride, as if this was something done every day.
> Just wanted to share my feelings,
> I hope I didn't upset anyone.
>
> --Dar
> Every saint has a future,
> Every sinner has a past
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:31 AM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
>
>
>> Hi Ann,
>> Sounds like you win "the perfect dog" award. <G> Your chocolate lab
>> sounds like the dog we all would love to have.
>>
>> The problem with chocolates stemmed, as it often does with dogs, from
>
>> the fact that that particular color of the breed became very popular.
>> Unethical breeders were breeding for the chocolate trait. Like you
>> said, all three colors appear in the same litter generally, so that
>> takes so orchestration to increase the number of one particular color.
>
>> Consequently, temperament suffered. Since most of the schools breed
>> their own labs, this wouldn't impact their lines. It was unscrupulous
>> breeders producing pet quality dogs so they could make money. Very
>> sad. Something similar happened when cocker spaniels became so popular
>
>> in the sixties. The one-time great family pet is now one that has to
>> be chosen very carefully if it is to be around young children.
>>
>> I find your experiences with the Ficelco dogs very interesting. My
>> first dog from them was a fantastic worker. I got her in 1987. As I
>> believe I mentioned, her trainer kept her at home with her own dogs.
>> No doubt this is why Ona had excellent house manners. But, I did have
>> aggression problems with her. She was fine around other dogs as long
>> as she was free. When in harness, everything changed and she would
>> growl and try to lunge at times. I worked hard with her and avoided
>> situations where I knew we would have to interact with other dogs
>> while she was working. For a while, I blamed myself and thought that I
>
>> might inadvertently be doing something that would make her think she
>> had to protect me. I didn't know any other Fidelco grads and hadn't
>> heard of anybody having this problem. So, because she was otherwise so
>
>> good, I just dealt with it.
>>
>> It is also interesting that you heard from people that both of your
>> gsd's should never have been placed. I had made friends with an
>> apprentice instructor there and she told me that Tasha, my next dog,
>> should never have been trained as a guide. She was distructive in the
>> house and completely lacked confidence on the street. The dog I have
>> now is also chews things and is not 100% housebroken, although she is
>> better than she was when I got her.
>>
>> I am really glad you shared your experiences with Fidelco, because it
>> actually makes me feel a little better. Whenever I have a dog in my
>> home that has behavior problems, I stop and take a good hard look at
>> myself to see if I am doing something to proliferate the issue. It is
>> not uncommon for the owner/handler to be causing a problem when dogs
>> are acting out. I have other dogs in my home and they are well behaved
>
>> both in the house and out in public.
>>
>> Jill
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007, Ann Edie wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Jill and All,
>>>
>>> I agree with you, Jill, that no matter what the reputation or the
>>> standard
>>> of the breed says "should be" or "is" the characteristic of a breed,
> that
>>> there will be exceptions to that statement. Trainers and breeders to
>
>>> whom I
>>> have spoken all say that although they have a picture of the typical
>>> member
>>> of a breed in their minds, that you always have to look at the
> individual
>>> and evaluate his/her traits through observation. They say that there
> is
>>> still more variation within a breed than among breeds.
>>>
>>> So much depends on a person's personal history and experience. When
>>> I
>>> went
>>> to the Seeing Eye in 1991, I told them that I wanted a female GSD.
> The
>>> "joke" back then was that they asked us what breed and sex of dog we
>>> wanted,
>>> just so that they could give us something else. That was borne out
> in my
>>> case; they matched me with a male, chocolate Lab.
>>>
>>> But I certainly had a hard time finding fault with that dog, Bailey.
>
>>> He
>>> was
>>> my excellent guide for the next 9 years. He was calm, tolerant,
> flexible
>>> in
>>> all things, and had the best house manners imaginable!
>>>
>>> At the time, my children were young, and of course, there were lots
>>> of
>>> toys,
>>> pieces of clothing, and sometimes food on the floor and on low
> surfaces
>>> in
>>> my house. Bailey never chewed on anything that wasn't his own toy!
> It
>>> took
>>> me exactly one little "talk" to train him not to eat the dogfood in
> the
>>> bowl
>>> which was left out at all times for my other dog, a Schipperke. Even
>
>>> though
>>> Bailey loved food as much as the next Lab, he just wouldn't touch the
>
>>> food
>>> in the other dog's bowl, even though it was the same food as he got,
>>> because
>>> he had been told not to. If the Schipperke took a piece of kibble
> out of
>>> the bowl and dropped it on the floor and left it, then Bailey was
> free to
>>> clean it up, and he did!
>>>
>>> Bailey was also not very distracted by people, except for his own
>>> family. He would get excited if he saw another member of my family
>>> while we were out walking around, which happened often, since I
>>> worked in the same school where my children attended. But he was not
>
>>> overly friendly or distracted by
>>> other people. So I could let people pat him without fear of his work
>>> quality suffering.
>>>
>>> In those days at TSE, there was a tradition that after about the
>>> first 2 weeks of class, the instructors would show new handlers how
>>> to cut their leashes to shorten them back to their original length,
>>> because the leashes would have stretched due to the number of leash
>>> corrections which had been
>>> administered during that time period. Bailey's leash was the only
> one in
>>> our class which did not need to be shortened. It hadn't stretched,
>>> because
>>> he needed so few corrections.
>>>
>>> At TSE, when a group of people and their young guides were sitting in
>
>>> the lounge, and the dogs would start wrestling and playing with each
>>> other, Bailey would lie quietly at my feet, as if to say, "These
>>> youngsters these days, they just don't know how to behave like proper
>
>>> guide dogs!" We used
>>> to joke that Bailey must actually be a retired under-cover dog who
> had
>>> been
>>> given a new identity as a guide dog because he was in the witness
>>> protection
>>> program. I was sure that once I went home with him, that the brown
> shoe
>>> polish they had put on his muzzle to cover up the gray would come
> off,
>>> and I
>>> would see that he was much older than the 21 months that his papers
>>> proclaimed.
>>>
>>> Bailey was also absolutely undistractable around other animals!
>>> Cats, squirrels, deer, raccoons, birds--all were invisible to him!
>>> There was more than one occasion when a young dog would come running
>>> out from its yard as
>>> we were walking past and would jump all over Bailey's head,
> attempting to
>>> engage him in play. And all Bailey would do is try to weave to avoid
> the
>>> other dog, and shake his head to try to shake off the other dog, so
> that
>>> he
>>> could see where he was going and continue on his way.
>>>
>>> Bailey did have skin allergies, which I have heard is a common issue
>>> in chocolate Labs. But behaviorally and in his guide work, I don't
>>> think I could have asked for a better dog. He was ready and willing
>>> to work at all times, did excellent work in stressful environments,
>>> but was perfectly content to lie around while I was working, without
>>> needing my attention for
>>> long stretches. As long as he was close to me, he was happy.
>>>
>>> I know that most of the pet chocolate Labs you see around are kind of
>>> wild
>>> and scatter brained, but that certainly wasn't the case with Bailey.
> And
>>> since the chocolates are just a color variation of the same breed as
> the
>>> black Labs and yellow Labs--you can have litters with 2 or all 3
>>> colors)--it
>>> doesn't make sense that chocolates would have significantly different
>>> character traits from the other colors.
>>>
>>> My wonderful experience with Bailey notwithstanding, I still wanted a
>>> German
>>> shepherd guide dog. So in 2001 I applied to Fidelco and got a female
> GSD
>>> who was gazelle-like and beautiful, but had serious prey drive
> issues,
>>> would
>>> chase anything that moved, animate or inanimate, and suffered all
> sorts
>>> of
>>> physical and emotional consequences of the stress of guide work. Her
>>> trainers had recommended that she not be placed as a guide, but the
>>> higher-ups at the school decided to place her anyway. I kept her
> only 3
>>> months, and then had to send her back for reevaluation after she
> lunged
>>> barking and growling at a couple of children who were sitting in the
>>> audience of a seminar near me. The dog was career changed and went
> to
>>> live
>>> with a family who were interested in possibly training her for search
> and
>>> rescue work.
>>>
>>> I got another GSD, a male, this time, and worked with him for a year
>>> before
>>> also having to concede defeat and send him back, due to severe dog
> and
>>> cat
>>> aggression issues.
>>>
>>> Both these GSD's had terrible house manners. They would chew
>>> anything
>>> they
>>> could reach. I learned to keep all the doors to bedrooms and
> bathrooms
>>> closed tight, because the first thing they would do as soon as they
> were
>>> let
>>> off leash was run to the upstairs bathroom and chew on and strew
> around
>>> everything they found in the waste paper basket. The male would also
>
>>> chew
>>> stuffed animals and clothing, even though he had plenty of his own
> dog
>>> toys.
>>> The male was also especially intent on stealing food from counters or
>
>>> even
>>> cupboards.
>>>
>>> I found out later that the male had a history of counter surfing in
>>> his puppy-raiser home. And I also found out later that when the
>>> trainers had taken the female on a trip with them to a convention
>>> during her training, that as soon as they got to their hotel room and
>
>>> turned her loose, that she had jumped up on the bed and done other
>>> unacceptable things, to the extent
>>> that they had had to crate her for the duration of their stay. Yet
> they
>>> placed these two dogs without apparently doing any intensive remedial
>>> training, and without giving me, the unsuspecting recipient, any
> warning
>>> of
>>> the likely problems I would face.
>>>
>>> As a result of my experience, I would be very hesitant to get another
>
>>> GSD guide, at least from that program. I still like the breed in
>>> theory, but I would look long and hard at a particular individual
>>> member of the breed before deciding to try training it as a guide. I
>
>>> would want to know the puppy raisers very well, and know that the dog
>
>>> had learned appropriate house
>>> manners. And I would want to be sure that the dog was absolutely
>>> reliable
>>> around other animals and around people of all ages and descriptions.
>>>
>>> I don't want an overly friendly dog, but I want one which is
>>> confident, calm, and dignified. And most of all, I want a guide
>>> which is loyal to me and wants to work with me more than he wants
>>> anything else in the world.
>>>
>>> For now I have the perfect guide for me--Panda, my wonderful little
>>> miniature horse! But, if some day I decide to train or get another
>>> dog guide, I will look very closely at the individual dog, more than
>>> at just the breed, to be sure that the dog has the character traits
>>> and behavioral habits that I feel are vital in a guide.
>>>
>>> I have really been enjoying reading this discussion on the list.
>>>
>>> Best regards to all,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:31 AM
>>> Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
>>>
>>>
>>>> I agree that every dog is an individual. I have had people who have
>>>> been exposed to a couple of salukis tell me that they are nervous
>>>> and skitish. They aren't supposed to be, but there are some out
>>>> there that are. There are exceptions to every rule in both the
>>>> negative and the positive sense.
>>>> There are those
>>>> that think that all pitts should be shot on principle. But I have
> met
>>>> some
>>>> pitts that are fine pets. I know a few boarding kennel owners who
> will
>>>> not
>>>> take Gsd's and chocolate labs. They swear that both have been over
> bred
>>>> and that they are nasty. Are some of them nasty, yes, but certainly
> not
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> There are certain general traits that are attributable to each breed
>
>>>> though. Vets have told me that they see more overweight labs than
>>>> any other breeds out there. Then again, they are the most popular
>>>> family dog today, so that could be why. And the very fact that they
>>>> are so popular as pets does point to the fact that they tend to be
>>>> very social and outgoing. I think it would be hard to argue that, in
>
>>>> general, labs don't have a pretty serious food drive and that they
>>>> are very friendly and people-oriented. There will be exceptions and,
>
>>>> clearly, these tendencies are readily controlable. I know lots of
>>>> folks who have labs as guides and they are wild about them. As I
>>>> have said repeatedly, breed choice is a very personal thing. I would
>
>>>> never go out of my way to own a lab again as either a working dog or
>
>>>> as a pet, but I bet a lot of people who love labs would really not
>>>> care for salukis and a lot of the other breeds that I favor. I just
>>>> think that people who look to schools for their dogs should have
>>>> more choices. At least nowadays, a lot of the schools allow people
>>>> to pick from the selection of breeds available in the
>>>> program. When I first went to TSE in 1980, nobody was asking what
> you
>>>> wanted.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Leader has used some interesting breeds. I have heard of them
>>>> using Bouviers as well. The school that trains vizslas has been
>>>> doing so for years. They would be an interesting breed to look at as
>
>>>> a guide.
>>>>
>>>> Jill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, AnnaLisa Anderson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> I'm behind on email here, but I just wanted to say that both my
>>>>> guides, one a chocolate lab and now my current gorgeous golden,
>>>>> have had very good house
>>>>> manners. Neither of them has ever been a table or counter surfer,
> and
>>>>> neither one has been destructive at all. I think it's an easy
> thing to
>>>>> generalize about a breed being unruly or food distracted, but that
> can
>>>>> be
>>>>> true of any dog. I think a lot of it has to do with how they're
>>>>> raised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also regarding breeds, I know that Leader is doing some
>>>>> experimenting with different breeds, one being the airdale terrier,
>
>>>>> and there is a puppy raiser
>>>>> right now who has a smooth coated collie, and she said he is a very
>>>>> mellow,
>>>>> sweet dog. They also train standard poodles. I think Southeastern
>>>>> trains
>>>>> vishalas (spelling?) and boxers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>> AnnaLisa and Sundance
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release Date:
>>>>> 4/18/07 7:39 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.4/768 - Release Date:
> 4/19/2007
>> 5:32 AM
>>
>
>
>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007
11:56 AM
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