(VICT) Re: Dog breeds
- From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:40:32 -0400
Hi, Jill and All,
I agree with you, Jill, that no matter what the reputation or the standard
of the breed says "should be" or "is" the characteristic of a breed, that
there will be exceptions to that statement. Trainers and breeders to whom I
have spoken all say that although they have a picture of the typical member
of a breed in their minds, that you always have to look at the individual
and evaluate his/her traits through observation. They say that there is
still more variation within a breed than among breeds.
So much depends on a person's personal history and experience. When I went
to the Seeing Eye in 1991, I told them that I wanted a female GSD. The
"joke" back then was that they asked us what breed and sex of dog we wanted,
just so that they could give us something else. That was borne out in my
case; they matched me with a male, chocolate Lab.
But I certainly had a hard time finding fault with that dog, Bailey. He was
my excellent guide for the next 9 years. He was calm, tolerant, flexible in
all things, and had the best house manners imaginable!
At the time, my children were young, and of course, there were lots of toys,
pieces of clothing, and sometimes food on the floor and on low surfaces in
my house. Bailey never chewed on anything that wasn't his own toy! It took
me exactly one little "talk" to train him not to eat the dogfood in the bowl
which was left out at all times for my other dog, a Schipperke. Even though
Bailey loved food as much as the next Lab, he just wouldn't touch the food
in the other dog's bowl, even though it was the same food as he got, because
he had been told not to. If the Schipperke took a piece of kibble out of
the bowl and dropped it on the floor and left it, then Bailey was free to
clean it up, and he did!
Bailey was also not very distracted by people, except for his own family.
He would get excited if he saw another member of my family while we were out
walking around, which happened often, since I worked in the same school
where my children attended. But he was not overly friendly or distracted by
other people. So I could let people pat him without fear of his work
quality suffering.
In those days at TSE, there was a tradition that after about the first 2
weeks of class, the instructors would show new handlers how to cut their
leashes to shorten them back to their original length, because the leashes
would have stretched due to the number of leash corrections which had been
administered during that time period. Bailey's leash was the only one in
our class which did not need to be shortened. It hadn't stretched, because
he needed so few corrections.
At TSE, when a group of people and their young guides were sitting in the
lounge, and the dogs would start wrestling and playing with each other,
Bailey would lie quietly at my feet, as if to say, "These youngsters these
days, they just don't know how to behave like proper guide dogs!" We used
to joke that Bailey must actually be a retired under-cover dog who had been
given a new identity as a guide dog because he was in the witness protection
program. I was sure that once I went home with him, that the brown shoe
polish they had put on his muzzle to cover up the gray would come off, and I
would see that he was much older than the 21 months that his papers
proclaimed.
Bailey was also absolutely undistractable around other animals! Cats,
squirrels, deer, raccoons, birds--all were invisible to him! There was more
than one occasion when a young dog would come running out from its yard as
we were walking past and would jump all over Bailey's head, attempting to
engage him in play. And all Bailey would do is try to weave to avoid the
other dog, and shake his head to try to shake off the other dog, so that he
could see where he was going and continue on his way.
Bailey did have skin allergies, which I have heard is a common issue in
chocolate Labs. But behaviorally and in his guide work, I don't think I
could have asked for a better dog. He was ready and willing to work at all
times, did excellent work in stressful environments, but was perfectly
content to lie around while I was working, without needing my attention for
long stretches. As long as he was close to me, he was happy.
I know that most of the pet chocolate Labs you see around are kind of wild
and scatter brained, but that certainly wasn't the case with Bailey. And
since the chocolates are just a color variation of the same breed as the
black Labs and yellow Labs--you can have litters with 2 or all 3 colors)--it
doesn't make sense that chocolates would have significantly different
character traits from the other colors.
My wonderful experience with Bailey notwithstanding, I still wanted a German
shepherd guide dog. So in 2001 I applied to Fidelco and got a female GSD
who was gazelle-like and beautiful, but had serious prey drive issues, would
chase anything that moved, animate or inanimate, and suffered all sorts of
physical and emotional consequences of the stress of guide work. Her
trainers had recommended that she not be placed as a guide, but the
higher-ups at the school decided to place her anyway. I kept her only 3
months, and then had to send her back for reevaluation after she lunged
barking and growling at a couple of children who were sitting in the
audience of a seminar near me. The dog was career changed and went to live
with a family who were interested in possibly training her for search and
rescue work.
I got another GSD, a male, this time, and worked with him for a year before
also having to concede defeat and send him back, due to severe dog and cat
aggression issues.
Both these GSD's had terrible house manners. They would chew anything they
could reach. I learned to keep all the doors to bedrooms and bathrooms
closed tight, because the first thing they would do as soon as they were let
off leash was run to the upstairs bathroom and chew on and strew around
everything they found in the waste paper basket. The male would also chew
stuffed animals and clothing, even though he had plenty of his own dog toys.
The male was also especially intent on stealing food from counters or even
cupboards.
I found out later that the male had a history of counter surfing in his
puppy-raiser home. And I also found out later that when the trainers had
taken the female on a trip with them to a convention during her training,
that as soon as they got to their hotel room and turned her loose, that she
had jumped up on the bed and done other unacceptable things, to the extent
that they had had to crate her for the duration of their stay. Yet they
placed these two dogs without apparently doing any intensive remedial
training, and without giving me, the unsuspecting recipient, any warning of
the likely problems I would face.
As a result of my experience, I would be very hesitant to get another GSD
guide, at least from that program. I still like the breed in theory, but I
would look long and hard at a particular individual member of the breed
before deciding to try training it as a guide. I would want to know the
puppy raisers very well, and know that the dog had learned appropriate house
manners. And I would want to be sure that the dog was absolutely reliable
around other animals and around people of all ages and descriptions.
I don't want an overly friendly dog, but I want one which is confident,
calm, and dignified. And most of all, I want a guide which is loyal to me
and wants to work with me more than he wants anything else in the world.
For now I have the perfect guide for me--Panda, my wonderful little
miniature horse! But, if some day I decide to train or get another dog
guide, I will look very closely at the individual dog, more than at just the
breed, to be sure that the dog has the character traits and behavioral
habits that I feel are vital in a guide.
I have really been enjoying reading this discussion on the list.
Best regards to all,
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:31 AM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
>I agree that every dog is an individual. I have had people who have been
> exposed to a couple of salukis tell me that they are nervous and skitish.
> They aren't supposed to be, but there are some out there that are. There
> are exceptions to every rule in both the negative and the positive sense.
> There are those
> that think that all pitts should be shot on principle. But I have met some
> pitts that are fine pets. I know a few boarding kennel owners who will not
> take Gsd's and chocolate labs. They swear that both have been over bred
> and that they are nasty. Are some of them nasty, yes, but certainly not
> all.
>
> There are certain general traits that are attributable to each breed
> though. Vets have told me that they see more overweight labs than any
> other breeds out there. Then again, they are the most popular family dog
> today, so that could be why. And the very fact that they are so popular
> as pets does point to the fact that they tend to be very social and
> outgoing. I think it would be hard to argue that, in
> general, labs don't have a pretty serious food drive and that they are
> very friendly and people-oriented. There will be exceptions and,
> clearly, these tendencies are readily
> controlable. I know lots of folks who have
> labs as guides and they are wild about them. As I have said repeatedly,
> breed choice is a very personal thing. I would never go out of my way to
> own a lab again as either a working dog or as a pet, but I bet a lot of
> people who love labs would really not care for salukis and a lot of the
> other breeds that I favor. I just think that people who look to schools
> for their dogs should have more choices. At least nowadays, a lot of the
> schools allow people to pick from the selection of breeds available in the
> program. When I first went to TSE in 1980, nobody was asking what you
> wanted.
>
> Yes, Leader has used some interesting breeds. I have heard of them using
> Bouviers as well. The school that trains vizslas has been doing so for
> years. They would be an interesting breed to look at as a guide.
>
> Jill
>
>
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, AnnaLisa Anderson wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>> I'm behind on email here, but I just wanted to say that both my guides,
>> one
>> a chocolate lab and now my current gorgeous golden, have had very good
>> house
>> manners. Neither of them has ever been a table or counter surfer, and
>> neither one has been destructive at all. I think it's an easy thing to
>> generalize about a breed being unruly or food distracted, but that can be
>> true of any dog. I think a lot of it has to do with how they're raised.
>>
>> Also regarding breeds, I know that Leader is doing some experimenting
>> with
>> different breeds, one being the airdale terrier, and there is a puppy
>> raiser
>> right now who has a smooth coated collie, and she said he is a very
>> mellow,
>> sweet dog. They also train standard poodles. I think Southeastern
>> trains
>> vishalas (spelling?) and boxers.
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>>
>> AnnaLisa and Sundance
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>
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