(VICT) Re: Dog breeds

Before I knew anything about anything, I wanted a collie for a guide.
I've never seen a saluki and would love to meet one. My husband's
retired guide is a very fluffy Australian shepherd, and we get all the
crowd adoration over his looks as well. I have to do the grooming, and I
wouldn't choose anything so fluffy for my guide. His legs are short, and
the fur underneath can easily get wet and muddy not to mention the
amount that comes out both when grooming and in general. Finally, can
you please explain why you find clicker training so successful with a
breed like a saluki that doesn't care much about food? 

Sheila Styron, President
Guide Dog Users, Inc.
816-363-3172
sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jill
Gross
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:53 PM
To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds


Hi Val,
The Mareemmas you mentioned sound very interesting. My breed of choice
as 
far as dogs that I have as pets and, secondarily, for comformation
showing 
are slaukis. I love all of the sighthound breeds. The salukis is
generally 
very aloof and have a low food drive. They can be very serious out in 
public, but at home they are clown hounds. I think that positive
training 
is just perfect for sighthounds. I used to have collies and German 
shepherds as pets. When I got into salukis, I had to give up all of the 
old, harsher methods of training. Forget a choke collar, and you
wouldn't 
dream of giving one a leash correction. Harsh training methods simply 
builds a wall between you and the dog and you are very unlikely to get
the 
desired result.

Salukis and other sighthounds often said to be dumb by folks who aren't 
very knowledgable about canine behavior. Sighthounds are highly 
intelligent, but they are very oriented toward what's in it for them. 
Again, clicker training is perfect for them.

So, salukis are my breed of choice in general. I can't imaigne life 
without them in my life. Having said that, I am not necessarily planning

on training a saluki as a guide. Back in the 1950's, a saluki breeder
form 
New York donated a female saluki to the Seeing Eye. She was trained and 
given to David Loux who worked at the school for many years. I contacted

David about ten years ago and asked questions about his experience with 
her. He said that on a scale of one to ten in working ability, she was a

twelve. She was fabulous. His only complaint was that she was too
serious 
overall as a dog. Needless to say, I often think aobut what David said.
I have had salukis since 1996. Some have been purchased as pups and 
some have been rescues. Some have had very steady personalities and some

have been what I consider to be too anxious to handle the stress of
guide 
work.

One problem with a salukis is that they are gorgeous, very elegant 
animals. I have had a couple who, when walked in town, have literally 
stopped traffic. I have often had people leaning out of car windows 
yelling questions about my dogs. It can be difficult enough to keep
people 
from petting and otherwise distracting a service dog without having them

be extraordinarily striking. I recall that the Seeing Eye would never
use 
white shepherds for that very reason. They drew too much attention.

I have looked at a couple of other breeds. An interesting one is the
black 
Russian terrier. The ones I have met are very sound and attentive, 
hard-working dogs. A breeder I know has had a few of her pups trained as

assistance dogs. My problem with them has to do with all of that hair! I

have major carpal tunnel issues and extensive grooming is out of the 
question for me. I have a very ahrd time keeping my long-haired shepherd

looking respectable. A black Russian has a lot of long, heavy coat. They

also are quite large. I can't quite imagine fitting one of these guys 
under a seat on a bus.

I would be interested to hear if others have worked with any "unusual" 
breeds or mixes. When I was a kid, I was super impressed by 
shepherd/collie mixes. They were bright and eager to learn. Nowadays, I 
would be afraid that they got more of the negatives in the mix simply 
because both breeds have been so overbred in this country.

Jill


On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, Valerie wrote:

> Jill, out of interest what is your preferred breed /breeds of dog 
> since doing  your research.? Although both my dogs have  been food 
> orientated outside the home particularly the lab, apart from a first 
> few days on arrival here, and being very mischievous with wrecking 
> bedding, they are very well behaved indoors. I could leave any food on

> a table and know it would not be touched, so as far as my two go they 
> are great indoors. I can't remember whether I said one school here is 
> trialling a Maremma cross Retriever, still in training, Mareemma's 
> being the guardian of flocks of animals, sheep, poultry etc. It's said

> they are rather aloof so distraction wise that may be a good trait 
> smile. Regards Valerie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:57 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: New member and I clicker
>
>
> Jo, I would guess that you probably like the idea of selecting your 
> own dog for training. I think that is the greatest factor for me. I 
> would like to pick my breed based on my research and I would like find

> a dog witht he personality traits that I like in a service dog. I have

> always been very disappointed in the very limited number of breeds 
> utilized by most of the guide dog schools. I know many people who have

> labs as guides and they are thrilled with them. I don't particularly 
> care for them and feel that they have some important traits that 
> decrease there desirability as guides, ie. they are very social and 
> they are extremely food oriented. There are so many fabulous breeds 
> out there and I have have never understood why some of them have never

> been used by the schools. I know there is a small school that uses 
> vislas and Leader will use the occasional bouvier or boxer.
>
> I "untrain" my guides to stop at the up-curb on street crossings. I do

> most of my travelling in the city where people often drive 
> wrecklessly. I want my butt and my dog's butt in the street as little 
> as possible. I have always been good able knowing where the up-curbs 
> are, so I find it safer for us to get out of the street quickly. I 
> have always trained my dogs to do other things, some that are 
> practical and some that are fun. I have also found that the dogs that 
> are trained by the schools tend to be unruly in the house. I have had 
> to do significant in-home training with all but one of my dogs. I have

> often wondered how the nondog person who gets a guide handles a guide 
> who wrecks their house.
>
> Jill
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jo Clayson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What would you like to do with your dog that the dogs in schools are 
>> not trained for?
>>
>> Interesting question.  I've never had a dog from a school, and though

>> I know a few people personally that have, I'm not really familiar 
>> with specifically
>> what behaviors are taught,  or not taught.
>>
>> Things I teach my dogs:
>> Tricks: shake hands, roll over, choosing the correct hand in response
to a
>> question, speak, etc.   Both my dogs and I have fun with these.
Teaching
>> a
>> trick is a good way for me to try out a different training 
>> method....if I really goof up and my dog doesn't do a perfect "play 
>> dead" it's not potentially life threatening for me or my dog.  Also, 
>> if my dog has been distracted and needs to focus back on me, tricks 
>> are often a good way to get that focus back.  Simply because they are

>> tricks and fun, there isn't the tension in my voice that so easily 
>> communicates to my dog, like when I might
>> tell her to "leave it" , "quiet" or "sit".  A dog that does a few
tricks
>> can
>> also delight other people, and help those who are hesitant or a bit
>> fearful
>> around dogs.
>>
>> Search & rescue: though we are not part of a search team, I want my 
>> dogs and I to be able to work together in this way. I live on 29 
>> acres of land in a rather remote area with thousands of acres of 
>> undeveloped land adjacent. Should a guest here, or a hunter get lost,

>> or should I be injured and folks
>> are looking for me, I want my dogs to be able to assist in the
initial
>> search.
>>
>> Agility - we don't compete, but do this at home for fun, physical 
>> conditioning, and for building teamwork, self-control, and physical 
>> skills.
>>
>> "go to the bathroom" - take me to a public restroom  . For a dog with

>> a keen sense of smell, this seems to be a fairly easy task.
>>
>> Find my stuff:   When we are away from home I may have a duffle bag,
back
>> pack,  jacket , bucket of tools, etc that I set down. Usually I know 
>> where they are, but sometimes I forget, or am "bleary brained" with 
>> chemical exposure and it's handy to have my dog take me to my stuff.
>>
>> Go to the car:   as I don't drive, and ride with many different
people,
>> and
>> some of the families have more than one vehicle, I sometimes can't 
>> remember what vehicle I'm looking for or where it is parked.  Kita 
>> does fairly well already in small parking lots.  Zoomer could even 
>> find the vehicle in a very
>> large lot.  It's also been handy for the driver a few times who
forgot
>> where
>> they parked!
>>
>> There are probably others.   Often my dogs have figured out something
on
>> their own that is helpful to me, so I reward and encourage it.
>>
>> Jo
>>
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