[TN-Bird] FW: Re: FW: Re: You don't harvest animals

Kelly, I do take your point, and I especially appreciate your argument about 
habitat creation.
In the end, none of these nuances would matter if most people were on the same 
page about the virtues (or evils) of hunting. But wherever there is controversy 
sufficient to change societal attitudes and governmental policies, there are 
spin words. 

Good (non-lethal) birding to all! ;D

Liz Singley
Kingston TN


------- Original Message -------
From : luvsbirdn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:luvsbirdn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent : 1/27/2009 6:53:32 PM
To : raincrow@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc : jameswbrooks@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject : FW: Re: [TN-Bird] FW: Re: You don't harvest animals



Liz & James - good talking to both of you and you are BOTH 99+% accurate in 
everything you say (I'm probably batting a good 50%!).  And Liz - welcome to 
the club of the unrestrained!

With respect to beans & taters, is creating habitat that causes an animal 
species to flourish really that different from gardening?  In both cases are 
you not harvesting a species for which you have created the conditions for it 
to replenish itself (or replenish itself with your help)?

Is "kill" a perfectly legitimate word to use in the cases mentioned - 
absolutely it is!

The point that I was trying to make (and probably failed at) was the one of 
peddling an agenda or personal bias as "news".  And even that is OK as long as 
there is full disclosure!  And James, I do apologize for my tone - please don't 
take personally anything I said because it was not aimed at you (it's that 
restraint thing to which Liz referred earlier!).

Is it reasonable to assume that a newspaper would have a policy of CHANGING the 
word "sacrifice" to "kill" when referring to scientific work - probably not.

Is it reasonable to assume the same for the words "collect" and "kill" in the 
aforementioned example with ornithologists - probably not.

Does it not then beg the question "is it reasonable to assume the same for the 
words "harvest" and "kill" when writing about wildlife management & hunting"?  
Again, probably not reasonable, but as we know that is what happens (or 
happened) at JCP - and the reader no doubt was clueless this was going on (but 
it happens all the time in many forms of media).  While it is a perfectly 
legitimate use of the word, a reasonable person is not going to assume this 
change routinely happens.  If they don't also make this change in other 
examples (as mentioned) or in other sections of the paper besides the outdoors 
pages, then why the bias and what is the agenda?  And again we all have, and 
are entitled to, our opinions & biases, but it crosses the line if you peddle 
opinion as news without full disclosure.  Finding a newspaper nowadays without 
an agenda is probabaly not reasonable either!

Now full disclosure for my part - I do hunt so I am probably biased in some way 
regarding hunting.  If you bird, as obviously we do, you are probably biased in 
some way regarding birding.  I don't read the JCP so it is possible they 
disclose their anti-hunting bias in their paper, I just assumed that they 
don't.  It is also possible that they change words like "sacrifice" and 
"collect" (more positive connotations) to a word like "kill" (more negative 
connotation).  Again, I just assumed they don't because that doesn't seem 
reasonable.  

Unlike many, I rather enjoy these debate-type discussions.  My wife hates them. 
 I apologize if I offended anyone.  I had to laugh out loud when one recent 
TN-Birder commented "how dirty they felt" after reading Stedman's comments 
about providing habitat vs. carbon emmisons while treking cross-country to find 
the next rare bird.  I knew exactly where they were both coming from and 
thoroughly enjoyed both posts, as I did with each of your posts.  I got that 
same "dirty" feeling though after replying to James' post and I do apologize 
for the "tone".

Best of birding, health & happiness to you both and may we blessed to meet in 
the field.  Sorry to wander....aging process in full effect here too....

Kelly





-------------- Original message from "Raincrow" <raincrow@xxxxxxxxxx>: 
-------------- 


I probably should just keep my 2 cents to myself, but of course I'm not that 
> restrained. I think I understand where both of you are coming from, Kelly, 
> and I agree in part with your analogies ("hired killer" -- good one; I never 
> thought about it quite that way). However, I think I come down a bit more on 
> Mr. Brooks' side. I've done my share of hunting and fishing through the 
> years, and still believe these are worthwhile pasttimes (which animal has a 
> better life? the one raised in an Auschwitz-like factory farm or the one that 
> lives a full, natural life in the wild until it meets a bullet?). However, I 
> decidedly do not like euphemisms like "harvest" -- I look upon it as an 
> attempt to sanitize a messy, irreversible act in which I exert my will with 
> complete finality over the will and life of another creature. I do not 
> harvest squirrels, deer, grouse, sauger, crappie, etc., I kill them so I can 
> take them home and eat them. I parse it more or less 
> this way: When I harvest peas & beans & taters, I can plant what I've 
> harvested 
> and get more peas & beans & taters. When 
> I harvest a rabbit, it's dead forever and that's that. 
> 
> I spent several years working in research laboratories where the word 
> "sacrifice" was used when we killed rats, rabbits, chickens, mice, etc. To 
> me, 
> the word "sacrifice" has a religious/ceremonial/spiritual connotation that 
> had 
> absolutely nothing to do with the killing activities I saw and participated 
> in. 
> People were quite perfunctorily (and not always gently or humanely, to my 
> outrage) killing animals to use their body parts for research. Others' lack 
> of 
> empathy for lab animals drove me away from animal-oriented research (I 
> bravely 
> switched to bacteria, which I found I could kill by the billions without 
> compunction because they did not scream or look at me with moist, brown 
> eyes). 
> 
> Throughout our entire history, we have killed plants and animals for food, 
> clothing, decoration, car seat covers, shelter, religious purposes, 
> intoxication, etc., etc., etc. "Kill" is a perfectly apt, legitimate, and 
> accurate word. I think all of us who hunt, fish, collect insects, etc., 
> should 
> relax and get comfortable with all the various connotations of the word or 
> else 
> just put down our guns, traps, bows, etc., because there will always be 
> people 
> who are not fans of killing animals through hunting, fishing, etc. 
> 
> Peace out, 
> 
> Liz Singley 
> Kingston TN 
> 
> 
> ------- Original Message ------- 
> From : luvsbirdn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:luvsbirdn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent : 1/25/2009 3:59:51 PM 
> To : tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Cc : 
> Subject : FW: [TN-Bird] Re: You don't harvest animals 
> 
> 
> I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed Mr Brooks' argument that "we don't 
> harvest 
> game". Says who (other than the Johnson City Press)? If an agency creates & 
> manages habitat for game animals and subsequently sets hunting seasons and 
> bag 
> limits for said animals, why would the take of such animals NOT be considered 
> a 
> harvest? It is not that "TWRA and other hunter groups are trying to convince 
> us" 
> that it is a harvest - it IS a harvest. 
> 
> Unfortunately, many in the media are "trying to convince us" that modern-day 
> legalized hunting is merely the evil pursuit of sadistic "killers" - 
> therefore 
> they ban the word "harvest" and replace it with "kill" in all their 
> reporting. 
> 
> I find the ultimate irony in Mr Brooks' piece to be that a hunter is a 
> "killer" 
> but an ornithologist is a "collector". If a hunter and an ornithologist go 
> afield together and each take a quail (bad example, I know) with a gun, why 
> is 
> it that the hunter "killed" his with some "high-powered weapon", but the 
> ornithologist "collected" his with his "fowling piece"? It would seem to me 
> that 
> the ornithologist who "ends up eating the remains of his specimen after 
> skinning 
> it" (as is usually done; or so claimed) is as much a "killer" as he is a 
> "collector". Seems to be a matter of perspective. 
> 
> What about those that sit at their kitchen window watching a bird feeder 
> while 
> enjoying a good cheeseburger? I suppose if said birdwatcher slaughters his 
> own 
> cattle and grinds it into burger he is a "killer" - but if he buys his burger 
> presumably the Johnson City Press refers to him as a "hired killer". 
> 
> Don't be fooled into thinking the Johnson City Press selectively changes the 
> word "harvest" to "kill" as a matter of style. It is being changed as a 
> matter 
> of prejudice. 
> 
> Now, about that Harpy Eagle stew - when can we go "collecting"...... 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> Kelly Roy 
> Knoxville TN 
> -------------- Original message from jameswbrooks@xxxxxxxxxxx: -------------- 
> 
> 
> > Someone used this euphemism in the discussion of what various birds taste 
> like. TWRA and other hunter groups are trying to convince us that we 
> "harvest" 
> game. I think that's so mom will let dad take her 10-year-old out with a 
> high-powered rifle to kill a deer, when he's really at the age when he should 
> be 
> hunting 
> > rabbits with a .22. ( or bank fishing, or birding with binoculars). 
> > As a style matter on the outdoors page of the Johnson City Press, any 
> > mention 
> of "harvest" that doesn't apply to grain is changed to "kill". When the news 
> department used to write the obituaries, people "died", they did not pass 
> away 
> > or go to sleep with Jesus like they do now that obits are paid ads. 
> > Ornithologists who have collected specimens usually end up eating the 
> > remains 
> > after skinning what they have taken with their fowling piece. 
> > Nothing quite like a bowl of Harpy Eagle stew to go with your study skin, 
> > or 
> so I've been told. With video and other technology I wonder if field 
> ornithologists 
> > still collect specimens? 
> > 
> > Arturo Kirkconnell , author of the Cuban Field Guide, took me into the 
> specimen 
> > room at Museo Nacional de Historia Natural in Havana to show me his 
> > Gundlach's 
> > Hawk specimen, since we didn't find a live one at Playa Larga . 
> > Appropriately 
> > they are all kept in cigar boxes in Havana. But the GH skin was gone, 
> > stolen. 
> > The Museo cannot afford security when they can only afford to pay their 
> curator 
> > $27 a month. 
> > 
> > Sorry to wander. Part of the aging process. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > James Brooks 
> > 
> > 
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> Neither the society(TOS) nor its moderator(s) 
> endorse the views or opinions expressed 
> by the members of this discussion group. 
> 
> Moderator: Wallace Coffey, Bristol, TN 
> wallace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> ------------------------------ 
> Assistant Moderator Andy Jones 
> Cleveland, OH 
> ------------------------------- 
> Assistant Moderator Dave Worley 
> Rosedale, VA 
> __________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Visit the Tennessee Ornithological Society 
> web site at http://www.tnbirds.org 
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> 
> =================NOTES TO SUBSCRIBER===================== 
> 
> The TN-Bird Net requires you to SIGN YOUR MESSAGE with 
> first and last name, CITY (TOWN) and state abbreviation. 
> You are also required to list the COUNTY in which the birds 
> you report were seen. The actual DATE OF OBSERVATION should 
> appear in the first paragraph. 
> _____________________________________________________________ 
> To post to this mailing list, simply send email to: 
> tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> _____________________________________________________________ 
> To unsubscribe, send email to: 
> tn-bird-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field. 
> ______________________________________________________________ 
> TN-Bird Net is owned by the Tennessee Ornithological Society 
> Neither the society(TOS) nor its moderator(s) 
> endorse the views or opinions expressed 
> by the members of this discussion group. 
> 
> Moderator: Wallace Coffey, Bristol, TN 
> wallace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> ------------------------------ 
> Assistant Moderator Andy Jones 
> Cleveland, OH 
> ------------------------------- 
> Assistant Moderator Dave Worley 
> Rosedale, VA 
> __________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Visit the Tennessee Ornithological Society 
> web site at http://www.tnbirds.org 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
> 
> ARCHIVES 
> TN-Bird Net Archives at http://www.freelists.org/archives/tn-bird/ 
> 
> MAP RESOURCES 
> Tenn.Counties Map at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/states/tennessee3.gif 
> Aerial photos to complement google maps http://local.live.com 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________ 
> 
> 

=================NOTES TO SUBSCRIBER=====================

The TN-Bird Net requires you to SIGN YOUR MESSAGE with
first and last name, CITY (TOWN) and state abbreviation.
You are also required to list the COUNTY in which the birds
you report were seen.  The actual DATE OF OBSERVATION should
appear in the first paragraph.
_____________________________________________________________
      To post to this mailing list, simply send email to:
                    tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
_____________________________________________________________ 
                To unsubscribe, send email to:
                 tn-bird-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
            with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field.
______________________________________________________________
  TN-Bird Net is owned by the Tennessee Ornithological Society 
       Neither the society(TOS) nor its moderator(s)
        endorse the views or opinions expressed
        by the members of this discussion group.
 
         Moderator: Wallace Coffey, Bristol, TN
                 wallace@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                ------------------------------
                Assistant Moderator Andy Jones
                         Cleveland, OH
                -------------------------------
               Assistant Moderator Dave Worley
                          Rosedale, VA
__________________________________________________________
         
          Visit the Tennessee Ornithological Society
              web site at http://www.tnbirds.org
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