[THIN] Re: high availability

Very possible. Depending on the number of servers at the sites. If he is
talking, 8,10 maybe even 15 or 20 he would be ok across the WAN (assuming
3.0 and good network pipes that aren't already tight) Even though its not
really Citrix's recommended situation since for years now they have had IMA
start time problems.

But if he is talking real farms in the 50, 100, or more server per site. I
wouldn't risk it. 

Then again With 3.0 I would really being Eyeing multi-farms sharing a
license server. 

Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
Microsoft MVP - Windows Server
 
RapidApp, Chicago
Mobile 815 325-7618
Office 312 372-7188
e-mail roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
 

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Steve Greenberg
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 7:34 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


Sounds to me like this solution would be overly complex with 8 =
production
sites around the world. What about a larger single SQL cluster at HQ and
then a DR cluster instead (i.e. hit SQL over the wan) ? With MF 3.0 the =
IMA
traffic should be greatly reduced and Zone no longer update each other
unless there is a specific cross zone request....

Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax=20
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:37 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


There are two ways to do it. Merge replication (not supported by Citrix) =
and
Transactional replication. The change to a subscriber (remote SQL DB) is
really passed to the Publisher (master copy) to verify that there is no
conflict with the change. The change is incorporated at the publisher, =
then
replicated back to the subscriber. It's a really fast process and works
pretty well in most cases. It also gives you the "look" of having =
writable
copies in all locations. If the publisher is down though you cant change =
the
DB but you can get into the CMC and look around etc.

But you still have to turn one of the DS DBs into a publisher if you are =
not
going to be able to recover the primary.

Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
Microsoft MVP - Windows Server
=20
RapidApp, Chicago
Mobile 815 325-7618
Office 312 372-7188
e-mail roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
Behalf
Of Steve Greenberg
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:23 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


Seems to me that if you have farms around the world depending on a =3D =
single
data store that it would been to be fault tolerant in a true =3D =
active-active
scenario, i.e. all instances have all the information and can accept =3D =
reads
and writes. Is this possible with MS SQL???

Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax=3D20
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
=3D
Behalf Of Lilley, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:03 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


also, if you had four marooned sites with read/write replica's of the =
=3D Data
Store, how would you recover from this in terms of re-syncing the =3D
databases?


Thanks,

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Lilley, Brian
Sent: 11 May 2004 16:49
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


Big Ron,=3D20

When you say "SQL server", I assume you are referring to SQL based
relational database servers in general and not specifically to MS SQL
server.

Ok, now I may be being totally over-pessimistic about =3D =
publisher/subscriber
replication here, but do you think it would be feasible to operate =3D
something like the following: as part of a controlled maintenance =
window,
point a server to the master copy of the datastore for the duration of
updates =3D to the data store? =3D20

Are the benefits gained by having a simpler replication topology =3D
outweighed by the amount of effort to provide a maintenance schedule =
like
above.  I =3D am ultra paranoid about a single global farm replicated =
between
8+ servers.

Would you trust the publisher/subscriber model for 8+ Data Store global
single farm? Do you trust DSCHECK?  Am I worrying too much? =3D20

thanks in advance,

Brian

=3D20

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: 11 May 2004 13:46
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


Well. One thing that I can say is any location you have a Citrix server
using a SQL server the DB should be read/write/. Now what do I mean by =
=3D
that? I mean that you should be using a publisher/subscriber model with
transactional replication/immediate updating.  This will allow the =3D =
changes
from servers talking to the subscriber to be pushed up to the Publisher
(master) written into the DS, then replicated to all servers.

The trick with this is that any servers online are going to have changes =
=3D
(of some type, print drivers added, hotfixes added, etc). And these =
changes
=3D need to update the DS. So I would not use a straight push for any =
SQL
server =3D with hot online servers connecting to it. Now to use one as a =
COLD
SQL server =3D you can do that. But lets assume a site loss. You have =
lost
50-75 servers in =3D one site along with the Datastore. Now you have a =
shipped
Database to =3D another site. And you are going to start installing =
servers
into that site to =3D get you up to capacity. All the shipping did was =
handle
your published apps =3D and licenses for the most part, since the 75 =
servers
are "gone" but remain =3D as ghosts in the DS and you still have to get =
a
bunch of servers on line.

Get it?

Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
Microsoft MVP - Windows Server
=3D20
RapidApp, Chicago
Mobile 815 325-7618
Office 312 372-7188
e-mail roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
=3D
Behalf Of Lilley, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 3:10 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability

Big Ron,

Thanks again for your response.

I will be replicating a master read/write copy of the database to =3D =
perhaps
5 major regional sites and maybe a couple more at a push. =3D20

Again, back to the DR hot-sites, should I make a data store present =3D =
there
also?

I guess it's a balance between reducing the complexity of the data store
replication and having a truly 'marooned' DR site available almost
immediately.

Personally, from the feelings I got from this list,  I would tend =3D =
towards
keeping the data store replication to a minimum and allowing the DR =3D
scenario the Citrix grace period to restore a data store onto an Oracle =
box
which =3D is pretty straight forward.

When I first asked about data store replication some weeks ago, I =3D
mentioned replication to ten servers globally for a single farm model =
(and
most of =3D the old timers winced slightly).  I am still looking to move
forward with a global single farm with data store replication to a =
reduced
number, prob =3D 5 or so... do you guys still hold the same view?

Also, can DSCHECK.EXE be trusted as a signature for health on the IMA =
=3D data
store?

best regards,

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: 10 May 2004 20:07
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: high availability


Simple answer. No it does not need to be clustered. Complicated =3D =
answer...
maybe.=3D20

I mean the real trick is how many (and what type) of changes will you =
=3D need
to make if it is unavailable. In most cases your answer will be none. We =
=3D
can operate without making changes to the DS for a couple of days. If =
that =3D
is true then you don't need the cluster.=3D20

Replication or shipping of the DB/Logs is needed though for any type of =
=3D
DR. Of course there are drawbacks to this too. I mean If you use =3D
transactional replication then when the primary is gone you cant make
changes anyway (until you turn the subscriber into the publisher). So it =
all
depends.=3D20

Hey, I can come out and work on this with ya. It sounds fun and right up =
=3D
my alley.=3D20

Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
Microsoft MVP - Windows Server
=3D20
RapidApp, Chicago
Mobile 815 325-7618
Office 312 372-7188
e-mail roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
=3D
Behalf Of Lilley, Brian
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:39 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] high availability

Chaps, I need to draw on your experiences again...

Does the primary IMA Data Store really need to be clustered, or is this =
=3D
more complication than it is worth. KISS principle, etc.?

I appreciate that high availability is important, but isn't the =3D =
integrity
of the database even more important.  Without a Data Store, what's the =
=3D
worse that could happen during the 96 hours, you can't make changes??

If something was seriously wrong the master IMA Data Store cluster node =
=3D A,
would we want the second cluster to take over?  Is there not a further
chance of corrupting data by having this nice-ity??

If the Data Store becomes unavailable, presumably an app server can =3D =
still
boot from the contents of the LHC?

thanks,=3D20

Brian

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know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest =
constraint to
scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the real =
constraints &
how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more
servers. http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=3D147
**********************************************************
Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
http://thin.net/links.cfm
***********************************************************
For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=20
set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link:
http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm

********************************************************
This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you
know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest =
constraint to
scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the real =
constraints &
how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more
servers. http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=3D147
**********************************************************
Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
http://thin.net/links.cfm
***********************************************************
For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=20
set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link:
http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm


********************************************************
This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you
know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest
constraint to scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the
real constraints & how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather
than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
**********************************************************
Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
http://thin.net/links.cfm
***********************************************************
For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or 
set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link:
http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm

********************************************************
This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you
know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest
constraint to scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the
real constraints & how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather
than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
**********************************************************
Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
http://thin.net/links.cfm
***********************************************************
For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or 
set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link:
http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm

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