[THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
- From: "Timothy Mangan" <tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:57:51 -0500
While T-Scale does do wonders on that normally, it wouldn't be able to do
optimize this - SoftGrid has to operate that way to build the sandbox. Oh
well!
Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies
tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Bernd Harzog
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:16 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
If that is the issue, then that is precisely the problem that the basic VM
Capacity Optimization in TScale addresses. Ron, maybe you should give it a
try.
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software, Inc.
bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx
678-455-5506 x701
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Mangan [mailto:tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 12:20 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Have you looked at paging? You should have some decent amount of
"copy-on-write" pages being written to during that time period. Perhaps
VMWare doesn't play nice on that.
Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies
tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:36 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Yeah this is not the authentication /cvers check etc. (besides with 3.0
you shouldn't be able to tell local from softgrid) anyway this is launch
word-Word opens- Sfttray say word loaded- type in word nothing happens-3
or so seconds later everything works fine and it catches up.
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:29 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
I tend to notice a couple of seconds of delay using SoftGrid in general,
do
you think this pause of over and above the standard overhead of
SoftGrid,
i.e. is this delay something you do not see on a workstation running
SoftGrid?
Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:23 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Pauses are with the app fully cached. And only after the launch of the
app
for a couple of seconds. We cant tell if it is softgrid 3 or VMw yet.
"SEEMS
LIKE" something is waking up or waiting to wake up cuz then the apps is
fine
after a few seconds. Close the app make sure there is no activity on the
MF
server for a couple of mins then try again and you get the same thing.
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Mangan [mailto:tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:40 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Yeah. I have seen cases of things like 16-bit apps eating up too much
CPU
and starving the cache. Filling the cache or controlling the 16-bit
apps
takes care of that.
Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx
www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Steve Greenberg
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:24 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Tim,
That does raise an important question about whether the apps or fully
cached
or still streaming at the point that these pauses occurr....
Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Timothy Mangan
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:22 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Ron,
Likely file system driver. Can't let anything get in the way of filling
the
cache. Split the problem by testing disconnected mode.
Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx
www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:52 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Ahh so we are on the same page. Cool.
AS for softgrid on VM (two pieces of new technology at once). We have it
in
a lab but that is all. MF FR3, on 2k3, running the Softgrid client in
VM,
hell even the softgrid server is a vm.
My partner has it at his house right now! On a dual with 3 gb of ram.
Seems
OK, we are trying to work out where some pauses in the system come from
now.
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:41 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Ron,
That is a very worthwhile clarification- I did not mean to suggest that
one
should take a resource constrained farm of physical servers and
virtualize
them. It is much more about consolidating under utilized servers and/or
separating application/OS conflict issues. Also, as you point out, if DR
is
the first priority then you might choose to virtualize.
BTW- Do you have experience/feedback running the Softricity SoftGrid
client
on a Metaframe VM? Any "gotchas" there?
Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:35 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
Steve.
Gotta hit this one:
>What the published studies actually show is that you end up with less
users
>per Virtual Machine then on the same physical hardware, however, you
can >run
>more VM's than physical instances of the OS and as a result you
actually >end
>up with around 20% more total users on the same hardware!
I am not standing up for the published study thing BUT being with the
largest single location VMware partner I gotta talk about VM and Citrix
a
little.
It has pros and cons and myself and another of our consultants here have
run
some simulations and cost benifts and worry about the "perceived
savings"
with Citrix and VM. We spec it for CSGs WI, ZDCs, under utilized silos
etc.
BUT VMWARE shines when hardware is underutilized. If your silo runs at
90%
all the time (lets say processor) then taking two duals and collapsing
them
onto a quad after the purchase of a VMware ESX lic and their SMP lic
module
the cost is to high to justify unless the primary goal is portability of
the
DSK files.
Now this is not to say that if you are hitting OS limits within a citrix
farm and not hardware limits (such as running out of paged pool kernel
mem,
registry space etc) that using VMWare to partition the hardware will get
you
more users/sessions per physical box. This is the truth. BUT if your
servers
are truly physical resource constrained then we have found it better to
focus VMware in the lower utilized one off silos and still have the
ability
to port primary silos to VMWare if needed (use a PTV to get the images
before hand and just store them)
Just my 2 cents.
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:14 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX
>>...The reason that I think we have not seen this is that people
perceive
that the overhead of VMware means that you end up with fewer concurrent
users on two VM's on a quad, then you would with two separate dual CPU
servers.
What the published studies actually show is that you end up with less
users
per Virtual Machine then on the same physical hardware, however, you can
run
more VM's than physical instances of the OS and as a result you actually
end
up with around 20% more total users on the same hardware!
Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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