[THIN] Re: SATA drives

I've used products like them in the past (and their products) and it is
amazing what they can do.  You never realize what a bottleneck the disks are
until you move away from movable heads :)


Jeff Pitsch Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server Provision Networks VIP

Forums not enough?
Get support from the experts at your business
http://jeffpitschconsulting.com



On 10/2/06, Steve Snyder <kwajalein@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I keep hoping to hear of someone's experience with http://www.tigicorp.com/tigijet.htm products and if they're worth the $$$

On 10/3/06, Steve Greenberg <steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree with Jeff, I have seen a number of TS/PS systems be noticeably
> limited by slow hard drives. The design of Windows thoroughly utilizes the
> disc drive for many key performance related functions. Not sure why in this
> day and age of past CPU and Gb's of RAM, but it is true nonetheless.
>
>
>
> Hey Tim- can you explain this? J
>
>
>
> Steve Greenberg
>
> Thin Client Computing
>
> 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453
>
> Scottsdale, AZ 85262
>
> (602) 432-8649
>
> www.thinclient.net
>
> steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On
> Behalf Of *Steve Ens
> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2006 2:15 PM
> *To:* thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* [THIN] Re: SATA drives
>
>
>
> I was wondering why my TS is so slow, those 4200RPM IDE drives don't cut
> it I guess ;-)
>
> On 10/2/06, *Jeff Pitsch* < jepitsch@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I know.
>
>
>
> I just feel very strongly about this and getting the most of out the
> hardware you have.  I'm going to shut up now.  :(
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/2/06, *Greg Reese* <gareese@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> don't hold back Jeff.  Get it all out.  :^)
>
>
>
>
>  On 10/3/06, *Jeff Pitsch* <jepitsch@xxxxxxxxx > wrote:
>
> I have to completely disagree with this.  There is nothing slower in a
> computer/server than the hard drives.  Can other portions be bottlenecks,
> absolutely, but you aren't typically running out of CPU or even memory on a
> 32-bit system.  why do you think most companies go with 2cpu systems vs 4?
> Becaues CPU isn't the bottleneck (typically) in a 32-bit system.  As well,
> your arguement falls flat because now we are talking about duo-core dies so
> those blades, 1U's, etc are now 4way boxes and can be taken advantage of in
> 64-bit implementations.
>
>
>
> I'm sorry there is no good arguement for going SATA over SCSI in a TS
> environment.  It's short sighted and your shooting yourself in the foot
> before you even get off the ground.
>
>
>
> Jeff Pitsch
> Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
> Provision Networks VIP
>
> Forums not enough?
> Get support from the experts at your business
> http://jeffpitschconsulting.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/2/06, *Melvin.Columna@xxxxxxxxx* < Melvin.Columna@xxxxxxxxx >
> wrote:
>
> But will it be the smallest bottleneck, might the # of CPUs (specially
> in Blade systems) not be another potential bottleneck ?
>
>
>
> I was going chime in last week regarding the warranty, maybe Compaq or
> some other only give you a 1 year warranty, but most drives these days (even
> PATA) have 3 or 5 year warranty.
>
>
>
> And it is true what Amer said, we had a notorious SCSI HD failure rate
> on our IBM X350, X360 and X365 servers--blame Hitachi.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On
> Behalf Of *Jeff Pitsch
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 01, 2006 8:16 PM
>
>
> *To:* thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* [THIN] Re: SATA drives
>
>
>
>
> Performance drop.  Price is fine, reliablity maybe, but performance is
> much worse than SCSI.  you are putting in a bottleneck that is unneeded.
> You aren't supposed to create your own bottleneck in a TS environment.
>
>
>
> Jeff Pitsch
> Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
> Provision Networks VIP
>
> Forums not enough?
> Get support from the experts at your business
> http://jeffpitschconsulting.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/30/06, *Amer Karim* <amerk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:
>
> I agree with you wrt to SATA being appropriate dependant on what they
> are going to be used for, and how.  However, regarding published failure
> rates and reliability figures - as far as I'm concerned, they're
> meaningless.  We went through a wonderful period of about 2 years where we
> were experiencing a failure rate of about 80% (note the missing preceding
> decimal) on brand new U320 SCSI drives (from various manufacturers) - almost
> every one of them brand new, and most within 6 to 12 months of use;
> including one reputation breaking case where every single drive for a new
> SBS server, 6 drives in RAID-1 and RAID-5 w/ hot-spare, failed the burn in;
> we RMA'd those, and when we got the replacements, all of those failed
> again.  By then we had swapped out the system board, power supplies, gone
> through 4 different RAID controllers because the Seagate chaps were
> convinced the drives were being blown by the surrounding hardware. We
> decided to switch to IBM drives instead - and had half of them die on
> us.  Turned out the problems were being caused by a bug in the drives'
> firmware.  We're still seeing a failure rate on U320 SCSI drives, both 10K
> and 15K flavours, which is far greater than it used to be 3 years ago -
> about 1 in 20 on average, and we've RMA'd more SCSI drives in the last 3
> years than we did in the preceding 10.
>
> Thus, IMO, figures on failure rates and reliability are moot - one bug
> in a firmware revision and that much vaunted integrity and reputation is mud
> as far as a client is concerned.  I agree there are some applications where
> SCSI performance is still a necessity - but I no longer consider them the
> holy grail, and if a SATA drive goes south I can replace it in however long
> it takes me to get to the client's site - they're cheap enough, and
> available enough.  Keeping my clients systems up and running is what they
> pay me for - and redundancy does a far better job of that than hardware
> 'reliability' and 'failure' figures.
>
> I will also state that up until 2 years ago, I would have, and did, walk
> away from any client who did not want to spend the money on putting SCSI
> drives in their servers.  I'm confident enough in the newer SATA/SAS
> technologies that I now consider them viable, and in certain cases
> preferable, alternatives to SCSI.
>
> Regards,
> Amer Karim
> Nautilis Information Systems
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Roger Riggins
> Sent: September 29, 2006 10:30 PM
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: SATA drives
>
> SATA can be an alternative for SCSI if you want cheaper, but can accept
> slower and less reliable storage. We found a home for them in our D2D2T
> solution, but those specs were acceptable for that project. Everyone's
> requirements are different for every project. Personally, if I'm
> responsible for the equipment or my reputation is on the line, then I'm
> going to recommend what I believe to be the best. If I have to
> compromise integrity for price, then I make sure that management
> understands that. I keep an "I told you so" in my back pocket. :)
>
> Check this out--
>
> Seek times:
>
> SAS Barracuda ES: 8.5/9.5
> SAS NL35: 8.0/9.0
>
> SCSI/SAS Cheetah 15k: 3.5/4.0
> SCSI/SAS Savvio 10k.2: 3.8/4.4
>
>
> Sustained transfer rate:
>
> SAS Barracuda ES: up to 78 Mbytes/sec
> SAS NL35: up to 65 Mbytes/sec
>
> SCSI/SAS Cheetah 15k: up to 125 Mbytes/sec
> SCSI/SAS Savvio 10k.2: up to 85 Mbytes/sec
>
>
> Annualized Fail Rate at 24x7 operation:
>
> SAS Barracuda ES: .73%
> Others: not listed, probably worse since the Barracuda is supposed to be
>
> their most reliable SATA or probably not rated for 24x7 operation
>
> SCSI/SAS Cheetah 15k: .62%
> SCSI/SAS Savvio 10k.2: .55%
>
>
> So from the numbers, it's safe to say that the SCSI/SAS seek times are
> almost half of SATA. Additionally, the above SATA drives are up to 25%
> more likely to fail than a SCSI/SAS drive. That's if you get these new
> ones that are supposed to be more reliable than the others!
>
> Here's an interesting link from the makers of the Barracuda. ;)
>
> http://www.seagate.com/products/interface/sata/targetapp.html
>
> So the bottom line is that SATA is a viable alternative for SCSI/SAS,
> but mostly for specific solutions/projects or very small shops.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Roger Riggins
> Network Administrator
> Lutheran Services in Iowa
> w: 319.859.3543
> c: 319.290.5687
> http://www.lsiowa.org
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Amer Karim
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:39 PM
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: SATA drives
>
> The Seagate 3GB/s SATA drives (Barracuda ES) lines have a 5-year
> warranty - and, for the price, I can put 8 of those in a server with
> RAID-10 and RAID-5 with 2 hot-spares for a fraction of the cost of SCSI
> for equivalent capacity.  In other words, I'd have to disagree with the
> comments about SATA not being a viable alternative to SCSI/SAS.  And
> throw in an SAS RAID controller, and you've made the migration to SAS
> drives down the road a fairly simple thing as well.  The SATA disks
> being referred to in those articles are older tech and better suited for
> desktop computers, rather than servers - IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Amer Karim
> Nautilis Information Systems
>
>
>
> <b>Lutheran Services in Iowa Confidentiality Notice
> ==================================================================</b>
> <red>The information contained in this communication may be
> confidential,
> is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above, and
> may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of its
> contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please return it to the sender immediately
> and delete the original message and any copy of it from your computer
> system. If you have any questions concerning this message, please
> contact the sender.</red>­½IRn‰¹(r)¢´z­jžz¶z–†ÿÁz¶ƒ²
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Other related posts: