Mike, For a customer of your size (100 servers) we offer an Enterprise License = Agreement that does exactly what you want. Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Pardee, Michael P. [mailto:MPardee@xxxxxxxx]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:59 AM To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost Personally, I have never liked per-CPU based pricing. Once Microsoft started using it for some of their products it seems like the entire industry decided to pile on. It has the potential to increase our costs = for servers. Just look at their MOM product. $349 per cpu for the = monitored node. The monitored node! Crazy. So you need to build a server, and = you hope you can get as many users on it as possible. So maybe you build a = quad (which is typically what we do). Then I need to monitor it. Ka-ching. = Oh, you want to back that thing up? Ka-ching. It's a terminal server and = you need better memory management? Tscale. Ka-ching. Wait, that was a = quad, right? Ka-ching Ka-ching. I know I live in a dream world, but I would rather have per server, or enterprise wide, agreements in place. But stay tuned, Bernd is about to prove me wrong!=20 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Bernd Harzog Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:32 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost I am not about to defend AppSense :).=3D20 We charge $995 for duals (real duals) and $1,995 for quads (real quads). = =3D Why charge more for quads than duals. Because customers typically have = =3D more users on quads than duals, and this is a reasonable way of charging = =3D for value received. It is like paying more for carpet in a 5 bedroom =3D = house than a 3 bedroom - bigger house requires more carpet. In my humble opinion what this is really all about is striking a balance = =3D between having a licensing policy that is fair and easy to live with for = =3D the customer and having one that generates enough money to the vendor to = =3D allow the vendor to continue to innovate and produce meaningful product = =3D enhancements. We work really hard at maintaining that balance here at = =3D RTO. We do not charge per user for server software. We do not make you =3D authenticate licenses against hardware (allowing you to repurpose them = =3D across servers if you need to). And we do not charge for hyperthreading. = =3D Yes, we charge more for quads, but guess what quads processor servers = =3D cost more than twice what duals cost, so as a percentage of the cost of =3D = the server our software is actually less expensive on quads. Cheers, Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Shonk, Joe - Perot [mailto:JShonk@xxxxxxx]=3D20 Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:21 AM To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost Yup, and to reroof your house shouldn't cost more that the house did. (ie.. the Appsense suite goes for $3400, I can buy a server plus the OS = =3D for that) Joe -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Stockard [mailto:jstockard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:05 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] OT now how much will it cost For the same reason that, if you have a faster car, gas will cost twice = as much. Wait a minute, they don't do that. Maybe it only costs more if = your car can hold more people. Wait, they don't do that either. Maybe it's like, if you have a lot of land, the builder will charge you = more to work on your house. No, they don't do that. I don't understand why after all. It is probably my limited knowledge. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Claudio Rodrigues Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:58 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = again I know that. The whole point is that as a developer of TS related apps, = I just do not get why charge people twice the price just because hyperthreading is there, on TS related software. The same about the = magic US$ 1000 number that I have heard a couple times from people on the TS arena. Well I guess I need to shut my mouth. :-) -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Bernd Harzog Sent: April 21, 2004 9:29 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = again Just so everyone knows how this works. There is an OS API call that you =3D3D3D3D can make to have the OS tell you how many CPU's there are in = the box. In =3D3D3D3D Windows 2000 a dual with hyperthreading is reported as = a quad by the OS. =3D3D3D3D In Windows 2003 it is reported correctly as two physical and two = =3D3D3D3D additional "logical" processors. As a software vendor, if you want to do something about this, you have = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D to write code to the actual hardware to determine the = real number of =3D3D =3D3D3D3D CPU's when running on Windows 2000. We have = done this so our licensing =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D is able to correctly (in = our opinion) charge you only for a dual no =3D3D =3D3D3D3D matter if it is dual with = or without hyperthreading, and no matter what =3D3D3D3D OS you are running = on. As a further point of interest, the physical CPU's are numbers 0 and 1, =3D3D3D3D and the logical CPU's are numbers 2 and 3. The behavior of the logical =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D CPU's is different from that of the = physical CPU's. For example if you =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D force a process to = run on only one of the logical CPU's, it slows down =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D the = whole server dramatically. Cheers, Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Claudio Rodrigues =3D3D [mailto:crodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D3D20 Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:54 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB =3D3D3D3D again Tricerat makes you pay for every single CPU instance the OS finds. :-( = That is bad. -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Evan Mann Sent: April 21, 2004 8:50 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = again I'm glad Microsoft doesn't try to get you for 2 processors licenses for every single HT enabled processor you have. 2 dual Xeon boxes is bad = enough to licenses, but if you had to pay for 8 CPUs total, ouch! =3D3D3D3D3D3D20 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Svein Arild Haugum Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:39 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again Yes, its true, you need SQL Enterprise edition to use more than 2GB for =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D SQL. And that cost like hell. Mvh Svein Arild -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Brian Madden [mailto:brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sendt: 20. april 2004 20:22 Til: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Emne: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again I don't agree with the statement that SQL will cap at 2GB on a 4GB box. Using the /3GB switch will allow the SQL service to address 3GB of RAM instead of 2GB. I do believe you need to be using the Enterprise Edition of SQL for it = to access more than 2GB of RAM, though. Brian Brian Madden brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx +1.202.302.3657 Visit www.brianmadden.com for in-depth Citrix, Terminal Server, and server-based computing news and analysis, white papers, downloadable = videos, and product reviews. -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Henry Sieff Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:57 AM To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again It'll 'use' it, but it won't use it for SQL or exchange - that'll cap at 2 GB on a 4 GB box. I do the same thing; pretty much the only servers I = don't do that with are Citrix and file/print. Also played around with AWE on = SQL, but it actually didn't work out for me (this was early on in SQL2K, = though, so maybe I will revisit the issue). Henry > -----Original Message----- > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On > Behalf Of Evan Mann > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:53 AM > To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = =3D3D3D3D3D again=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 I opted for /3GB on my SQL = Boxes =3D and =3D3D =3D3D3D Exchange =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D Boxes =3D3D3D3D3D3D (both=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >4GB=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 of RAM and dedicated to their respective = apps). =20 >=3D I wasn't=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >sure if the system actually used the 4GB w/o the /3GB switch, but the=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >3 GB to=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 user mode is definitely what I want. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > Thanks, >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > Evan=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > -----Original Message----- > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >Behalf Of Brian Madden > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:45 PM > To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = =3D3D3D3D3D again=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 You do not need PAE. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > By default, the 4GB of RAM is split 50/50 between the kernel and your >applications (i.e. SQL). You would probably be well served =3D3D3D3D to=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D use >/3GB, because that will give you 3GB for the apps (SQL) and =3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D leave=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >only 1GB for the kernel. If this is a dedicated SQL server, 1GB should >be=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 plenty for the SQL server. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > (If this is also, for example, a busy file server or DC, I probably =3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >wouldn't mess with /3GB and leave the memory split 50/50. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > Brian >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > Brian Madden > brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > +1.202.302.3657 > Visit www.brianmadden.com for in-depth Citrix, Terminal Server, and =3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >server-based computing news and analysis, white papers, downloadable =3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >videos, and product reviews. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > -----Original Message----- > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >Behalf Of Henry Sieff > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:48 AM > To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' > Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB = =3D3D3D3D3D again=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 The 3GB switch operates as before. Not sure about = =3D the =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D PAE.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 >You also have more flexibility ib the memory tuning. >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > =3D3D3D3D http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3Dkb;e= n-=3D us=3D3D ; 3=3D3D3D 1 > 6739&Produc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D > t > =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D > w > insv > r2003 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On > > Behalf Of Evan Mann > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:41 AM > > To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [THIN] OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE =3D3D3D /3GB=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > again =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D = =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20=20 >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >I have SQL 2000 SP3a Enterprise on Windows 2003 =3D3D3D Enterprise=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > server with >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >4GB of ram. > > Do I need either the /3GB or the /PAE switch to use the 4GB of RAM? > >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > > ******************************************************** > > This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients Neoware =3D3D3D makes=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > computing=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >open, secure, reliable,=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 affordable, = manageable=20 > >=3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D and=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >obsolete-free.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 Starting at =3D3D $199!=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D > http://www.neoware.com=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > > ********************************************************** > > Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: > > http://thin.net/links.cfm > > *********************************************************** > > For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 = set=20 > > =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D3D Digest =3D3D3D3D3D or =3D3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D > Vacation=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > >mode use the below link: > > http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm > >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 > ******************************************************** > This week's sponsor - 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