[THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost
- From: "Bernd Harzog" <Bernd.Harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:09:31 -0400
Now, you realize you have just asked for a sales pitch :)
The math for duals. Duals cost around $6000 by the time you add in the =
OS license, the memory, the networking, power, and rack overhead. You =
can get at least 33% more users per server by putting TScale on it. That =
means that three licenses that cost you $3000 and you get the same =
capacity as a purchase of a dual (and you get control of rogue =
applications thrown in for good measure). Bottom line, you save $3,000.
The math for quads. Quads costs at least $12,000 by the time you add =
everything in. You can get at least 33% more users per server by putting =
TScale on it. That means that three licenses that cost you $6,000 and =
you get the same capacity as a purchase of a quad (and you get control =
of rogue applications thrown in for good measure). Bottom line, you save =
$6,000.
I hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software, Inc.
bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx
678-455-5506 x701
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Stockard [mailto:jstockard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:51 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost
Please forgive me. I am a little thick. If I buy your software to
increase the number of users I can put on a server, you will charge me
more to have a server that will handle what I am paying you for your
software to do?
I am not sure I understand. I like the simple to understand, per user
license. I never buy any software that has a hardware key (way too 1980
for me).
Just my limited knowledge showing, again I apologize.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bernd Harzog
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:32 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost
I am not about to defend AppSense :).=3D3D20
We charge $995 for duals (real duals) and $1,995 for quads (real quads).
=3D3D
Why charge more for quads than duals. Because customers typically have =
=3D
=3D3D
more users on quads than duals, and this is a reasonable way of charging
=3D3D
for value received. It is like paying more for carpet in a 5 bedroom =
=3D3D
house than a 3 bedroom - bigger house requires more carpet.
In my humble opinion what this is really all about is striking a balance
=3D3D
between having a licensing policy that is fair and easy to live with for
=3D3D
the customer and having one that generates enough money to the vendor to
=3D3D
allow the vendor to continue to innovate and produce meaningful product
=3D3D
enhancements. We work really hard at maintaining that balance here at =
=3D
=3D3D
RTO. We do not charge per user for server software. We do not make you =
=3D
=3D3D
authenticate licenses against hardware (allowing you to repurpose them =
=3D
=3D3D
across servers if you need to). And we do not charge for hyperthreading.
=3D3D
Yes, we charge more for quads, but guess what quads processor servers =
=3D
=3D3D
cost more than twice what duals cost, so as a percentage of the cost of
=3D3D
the server our software is actually less expensive on quads.
Cheers,
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software, Inc.
bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx
678-455-5506 x701
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Shonk, Joe - Perot [mailto:JShonk@xxxxxxx]=3D3D20
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:21 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: OT now how much will it cost
Yup, and to reroof your house shouldn't cost more that the house did.
(ie.. the Appsense suite goes for $3400, I can buy a server plus the OS
=3D3D
for
that)
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Stockard [mailto:jstockard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:05 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] OT now how much will it cost
For the same reason that, if you have a faster car, gas will cost twice
as much. Wait a minute, they don't do that. Maybe it only costs more
if your car can hold more people. Wait, they don't do that either.
Maybe it's like, if you have a lot of land, the builder will charge you
more to work on your house. No, they don't do that.
I don't understand why after all. It is probably my limited knowledge.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Claudio Rodrigues
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:58 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB
again
I know that. The whole point is that as a developer of TS related apps,
I just do not get why charge people twice the price just because
hyperthreading is there, on TS related software. The same about the
magic US$ 1000 number that I have heard a couple times from people on
the TS arena. Well I guess I need to shut my mouth. :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bernd Harzog
Sent: April 21, 2004 9:29 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB
again
Just so everyone knows how this works. There is an OS API call that you
=3D3D3D3D3D
can make to have the OS tell you how many CPU's there are in the box. In
=3D3D3D3D3D
Windows 2000 a dual with hyperthreading is reported as a quad by the OS.
=3D3D3D3D3D
In Windows 2003 it is reported correctly as two physical and two =3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
additional "logical" processors.
As a software vendor, if you want to do something about this, you have =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
to write code to the actual hardware to determine the real number of =3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
CPU's when running on Windows 2000. We have done this so our licensing =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
is able to correctly (in our opinion) charge you only for a dual no =3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
matter if it is dual with or without hyperthreading, and no matter what
=3D3D3D3D3D
OS you are running on.
As a further point of interest, the physical CPU's are numbers 0 and 1,
=3D3D3D3D3D
and the logical CPU's are numbers 2 and 3. The behavior of the logical =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
CPU's is different from that of the physical CPU's. For example if you =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
force a process to run on only one of the logical CPU's, it slows down =
=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
the whole server dramatically.
Cheers,
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software, Inc.
bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx
678-455-5506 x701
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Claudio Rodrigues =3D3D3D
[mailto:crodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D3D3D20
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:54 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE
/3GB =3D3D3D3D3D
again
Tricerat makes you pay for every single CPU instance the OS finds. :-(
That is bad.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Evan Mann
Sent: April 21, 2004 8:50 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB
again
I'm glad Microsoft doesn't try to get you for 2 processors licenses for
every single HT enabled processor you have. 2 dual Xeon boxes is bad
enough to licenses, but if you had to pay for 8 CPUs total, ouch!
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Svein Arild Haugum
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:39 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] SV: Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again
Yes, its true, you need SQL Enterprise edition to use more than 2GB for
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D SQL. And that cost like hell.
Mvh
Svein Arild
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: Brian Madden [mailto:brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sendt: 20. april 2004 20:22
Til: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Emne: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again
I don't agree with the statement that SQL will cap at 2GB on a 4GB box.
Using the /3GB switch will allow the SQL service to address 3GB of RAM
instead of 2GB.
I do believe you need to be using the Enterprise Edition of SQL for it
to access more than 2GB of RAM, though.
Brian
Brian Madden
brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
+1.202.302.3657
Visit www.brianmadden.com for in-depth Citrix, Terminal Server, and
server-based computing news and analysis, white papers, downloadable
videos, and product reviews.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Henry Sieff
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:57 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB again
It'll 'use' it, but it won't use it for SQL or exchange - that'll cap at
2
GB on a 4 GB box. I do the same thing; pretty much the only servers I
don't do that with are Citrix and file/print. Also played around with
AWE on SQL, but it actually didn't work out for me (this was early on in
SQL2K, though, so maybe I will revisit the issue).
Henry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
> Behalf Of Evan Mann
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:53 AM
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB =3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
again=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 I opted for /3GB on my SQL =
=3D
Boxes =3D3D
and =3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
Exchange
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
Boxes =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
(both=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>4GB=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 of RAM and dedicated to their respective =3D
apps).
=3D3D
I
wasn't=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>sure if the system actually used the 4GB w/o the /3GB switch, but
the=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>3 GB to=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 user mode is definitely what I want.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> Thanks,
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> Evan=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Brian Madden
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:45 PM
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB =3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
again=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 You do not need PAE.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> By default, the 4GB of RAM is split 50/50 between the kernel and your
>applications (i.e. SQL). You would probably be well served =3D3D3D3D3D
to=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
use
>/3GB, because that will give you 3GB for the apps (SQL) and =3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
leave=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>only 1GB for the kernel. If this is a dedicated SQL server, 1GB should
>be=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 plenty for the SQL server.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> (If this is also, for example, a busy file server or DC, I probably
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>wouldn't mess with /3GB and leave the memory split 50/50.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> Brian
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> Brian Madden
> brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> +1.202.302.3657
> Visit www.brianmadden.com for in-depth Citrix, Terminal Server, and
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>server-based computing news and analysis, white papers, downloadable
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>videos, and product reviews.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Henry Sieff
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:48 AM
> To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [THIN] Re: OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE /3GB =3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D
again=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 The 3GB switch operates as before. Not sure =
about =3D
=3D3D
the =3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D
=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
PAE.=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>You also have more flexibility ib the memory tuning.
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> =3D3D3D3D3D
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3Dkb=
;e=3D
n
-=3D3D
us=3D3D3D
;
3=3D3D3D3D
1
> 6739&Produc=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
> t
> =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
> w
> insv
> r2003
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
> > Behalf Of Evan Mann
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:41 AM
> > To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [THIN] OT: SQL 2000 on Win2K3 Server, /PAE =3D3D3D3D
/3GB=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> again =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D
> =3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> >I have SQL 2000 SP3a Enterprise on Windows 2003 =3D3D3D3D
Enterprise=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> server with
>=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> >4GB of ram.
> > Do I need either the /3GB or the /PAE switch to use the 4GB of RAM?
> >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
> > ********************************************************
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makes=3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D3D20
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or =3D3D3D3D3D3D
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D3D3D3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D3D3D3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D3D3D3D3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D3D3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D3D3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D3D3D3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D3D3D3D3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D3D3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D3D3D3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D3D3D20
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Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D3D20
Starting at $199!=3D3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=3D20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=3D20
Starting at $199!=3D20
http://www.neoware.com=3D20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,=20
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.=20
Starting at $199!=20
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This week's sponsor - Neoware Thin Clients
Neoware makes computing open, secure, reliable,
affordable, manageable and obsolete-free.
Starting at $199!
http://www.neoware.com
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