I agree that SofGrid, Citrix Streaming and ThinStall are all properly called application virtualization. Sorry Doug, we can duke this one at the next conference :) The virtual file system in SoftGrid is not fundamentally different that the ability to re-direct in Citrix and ThinStall, I think it is just deeper. I think Carl hit the nail on the head when he said that Virtualization involves some form of partitioning. That is the fundamental principle- when you create a separate at some layer between two elements of computing that before were inherently tied together. For example, hardware-os, os- applications, os- file system, etc. I love this list-- what are the chances of getting this many smart people in one place! Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 www.thinclient.net steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joe Shonk Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:14 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualized or Not To Virtualized with SBC Redirection and isolation by definition is virtualization. For application virtualization, there is a layer that exists between the Operating System and the Application. From a conceptual point of view, Thinstall, Citrix App Hub and Softgrid all work using the same principles. How the vendor chooses to deliver and cache changes inside their virtual environment is largely irrelevant. I don't think that you can conclude that if a solution uses a virtual file system then qualifies for the name "Virtualization" and all else is simply redirection/isolation. Should we then call Softgrid "storage virtualization" since the only thing virtual is the file system it uses for file/registry/object redirection and isolation? VMware, isn't that simply redirection and isolation? The difference is they've chosen to redirect and isolate hardware. To boot, VMware does NOT need to read/write to a virtual file system. You can choose to run a virtual machine from a RAW lun or partition. So, by the same token as Citrix's solution (which redirects to a traditional file system), does Vmware qualify as virtualization? A VLAN, for example, virtualizes a broadcast domain. How does the switch accomplish this? Simple, redirection and isolation. Ardence is simply storage virtualization. Yes it does have a streaming component which is required to deliver the virtual disks. Streaming and virtualization are two different things. Streaming is a deployment mechanism where virtualization is redirection and isolation of a resource. Don't get me wrong, many virtualization techniques do require a delivery component. Joe -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Douglas A. Brown Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:19 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualized or Not To Virtualized with SBC Yah, I'm starting to call Presentation Server "Presentation Virtualization" which is basically the same as session... I agree.. For sure... and from what I've seen the Ardence stuff is WAY COOL and I agree with you... It is file virtualization but of course that is not as big of a market as OS so they want to be seen there.. Which is weird as if they place themselves in the file vitalization market then they can be a leader... that is better than competing with VMware.... right? and... Yes... you know what I think, SoftGrid IS application virtualization. They virtualize/isolate an application inside a virtual file system the same was VMware does with virtual OSs. Right? Citrix, Alteris does not. They redirect and isolate in side a traditional file system. It is just different... Do you no agree?? I'm not saying (or at least not above) that one is better than the other. I'm just saying it is true the one is virtualization as defined by VMware and one is redirection as defined by simply looking at it and seeing they are programicly relocating files in the same file system.. ;) Your take? DB p.s. it is nice to chat with you Steve. It has been way too long. Douglas A. Brown President and Chief Technology Officer Microsoft MVP, Windows Server Citrix Technology Professional DABCC, Inc. Phone: (954) 778-9558 Fax: (941) 827-9073 E-mail: dbrown@xxxxxxxxx Web: http://www.dabcc.com -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Greenberg Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:25 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualize or Not To Virtualize with SBC Good point, there is always a bit of weazling going on in the marketing departments :) I think Citrix co-opting Virtualization for PS is fair, I call it session virtualization and this is reasonable. If they try to call Ardence OS virtualization, that would go too far, it is really disk virtualization and it goes a great job at it.... On streaming/redirection - do you consider SoftGrid application virtualization? Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 www.thinclient.net steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Douglas A. Brown Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:50 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualize or Not To Virtualize with SBC I get a kick out of the title, "to Virtualize or not".... seems like something that was written about a very successful application virtualization solution (to install or not about app Softgrid) I have not read the article, I will. Wilco is way smart so I can only imagine it is well done but I do respect your opinions too Jim. But it makes me think. Is Ardence (Citrix) trying to redefine the term OS virtualization like Citrix tried to weasel their way in to calling a "streaming" / "redirection" technology "application virtualization"? The good part is that we have Steve G to set them straight!!! :) :) :) DB Douglas A. Brown President and Chief Technology Officer Microsoft MVP, Windows Server Citrix Technology Professional DABCC, Inc. Phone: (954) 778-9558 Fax: (941) 827-9073 E-mail: dbrown@xxxxxxxxx Web: http://www.dabcc.com -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Kerr Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:24 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualize or Not To Virtualize with SBC The article is awful. I recognized this at the first sentence. "The first virtualization technique that came into the market was server virtualization." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Greenberg" <steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:25 PM Subject: [THIN] Re: MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualize or Not To Virtualize with SBC > > The definition of Operating System virtualization is not quite correct in > this article. It says that Ardence is OS virtualization, it really is disk > virtualization. OS virtualization is when a host OS can spawn additional > unique instances of OS's by virtualizing, i.e. sharing, the underlying OS > components... > > Steve Greenberg > Thin Client Computing > 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453 > Scottsdale, AZ 85262 > (602) 432-8649 > www.thinclient.net > steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > -----Original Message----- > From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf > Of MSTerminalServices.org > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:10 AM > To: THIN List > Subject: [THIN] MSTerminalServices.org - To Virtualize or Not To > Virtualize > with SBC > > MSTerminalServices.org - RealTime Article Update > > Hi THIN List, > > > > Title: To Virtualize or Not To Virtualize with SBC > Author: Wilco van Bragt > Link: > http://www.MSTerminalServices.org/articles/Virtualize-Server-Based-Computing > .html > Summary: The types of virtualization which exist for an SBC > infrastructure. > > > > > > Visit the Subscription Management (http://newsletter.isoftmarketing.com/) > section to unsubscribe. > MSTerminalServices.org is in no way affiliated with Microsoft Corp. > For sponsorship information, contact us at > advertising@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Copyright C MSTerminalServices.org 2007. 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