[THIN] Re: Hybrid question?

If you want to go just TS have a look at Provision Networks 
(http://www.provisionnetworks.com ) It will get you the functionality of Citrix 
and just using TS. 
You'll need more than one server when you get up to your 650 number however you 
do it... at least 3 or 4 is a better estimate. 
 
Our experience has been that servers actually outlast the clients. We still 
have some servers 4 years out after replacing the clients. The pace of thin 
computing technology and client management is going to exceed your ability to 
keep current.  I would reccomend going with a company that does NOT use 
proprietary methods to manage their clients.  For example,  HP uses Altiris 
which can also be used to manage all your workstations and servers no matter 
what brand.  The management piece is what makes the client. 
 
We have gone full circle here are Cuyahoga County Library...we used to run the 
browser on TS/Citrix and have found that the model still doesn't support the 
graphics/audio/video and streaming our patrons demand.  We have gone back to 
using PC's for internet and office access and strict Policies and Altiris 
Protect to lock them down.  Thin clients really aren't a savings if you find 
that it prevents people from being able to get their work done.  You have to 
look at the apps and usage to determine your clients.  
 
As the virtualization industry heats up you are going to see more and more 
offerings of "virtual desktops" being delivered to devices (that have enough 
storage for them that is) 
These desktops will better have the ability to use the resources of the local 
machine for improved audio and video. Most thin clients on the market today are 
not going to be able to run these "virtual desktops" because they lack the 
storage to bring them down to the client. 
 
I'm still not convinced that there is as big of savings in thin clients (other 
then the power consumption angle) as it is made out to be.  It has been our 
experience that the ones we have had have required more maintenance and 
replacement then our Compaq desktops running mandatory profiles/gpo's. We've 
gone through 3 iterations of thin clients while or staffs desktop PC's are 
still chugging away 4 and 5 years later. 
 
Jim Kenzig
 
 

 
 

Keith Sirmons <KSirmons@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I had figured into my costs purchasing a new $6K  server every 3 years, I 
gussed at a citrix License maint at $2k/ Year
Adding 50 thins in year 1, 30 in years 2-4, and 10 in year 5.  Then replacing 3 
thins per year for broken machines.
 
I have not added the cost of increased storage needs into these equations.  
 
Is this unrealistic?  I thought these things ran forever....:)
 
Is there a industry standard for replacing thin clients like fat clients?  We 
replace fat clients at a rate of 20%/year so we never have a computer over 5 
years old.
 
I have figured I can replace ~85% of my fat clients with thin clients.
 
 
I have this all charted out on a spread sheet. If you want to take a look at it 
i'll e-mail it to you.  Any extra eyes looking at it that knows more about this 
than I would be helpful.
 
Keith

 
 
Keith Sirmons
Microcomputer/LAN Administrator
College of Veterinary Medicine


>>> jkenzig@xxxxxxxxx 10/28/2005 11:46 AM >>>

"it would pay for itself after 3 years and save us more than $175,000 over the 
next 10 years"
 
Are you serious?? Where would the savings be? In 10 years none of your servers 
OR the wyse winterminals will be working. Not to mention the fact that they 
will be so outdated they won't run any of the current software that is being 
delivered at the time.  You should set your self up on a 3-5 year amortization 
plan for servers and at least a 5 year on workstations. 
JK

Keith Sirmons <KSirmons@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ok.. I forgot that MS load balance isn't great.  
 
We want to pull the app from the current desktops and put it on Citrix so it 
can easily be used from not only here, but from around the world via web page.  
 
This number may make the corporate world sick, but the licenses are just under 
$250 each for Citrix for us and that is still out of budget.
 
We figure if this app were the only thing the servers were doing, 1 server 
would handle the entire load.  I want 2 so I have an N+1 config.
 
If we get to move toward thin clients, then I would keep buying servers and 
always keep the N+1 config going.
 
My goal was to have all Wyse thin clients managed by Rapport.  Our custom app, 
GroupWise, and MS Office all deployed via Citrix.  I figured it would pay for 
itself after 3 years and save us more than $175,000 over the next 10 years.
 
I'm trying to find a middle road to go down to get to my final goal with out 
laying $38K cash down on day 1.
 
Goal 1 is to move the app to Citrix and off the fat clients.  Another reason 
for looking at Citrix was so I could move all servers to a VLAN to segregate it 
from all of the other traffic and use Citrix as a "Application Gateway" (I 
think that is the correct term)
 
Goal 2 is get 80%-90% all machines moved to thin over the next 3 years.
 
Sorry if I have rambled.  
 
Keith
 
 
Keith Sirmons
Microcomputer/LAN Administrator
College of Veterinary Medicine


>>> Claudio.Rodrigues@xxxxxxxxxx 10/28/2005 10:01 AM >>>

And why not use other options than Citrix?
If all he needs is to publish a single application, Citrix may be way
overkill for that.
For 'published desktops' there is not much difference between Citrix and
plain TS.
He does not mention how many servers he will have but given the amount of
users, should not be many so you can load balance RDP with other products as
well.
Just my $0.02 here. 

Cláudio Rodrigues

Microsoft MVP
Windows Server - Terminal Services
http://www.2x.com.



________________________________

From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Russell Robertson
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:30 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Hybrid question?


Why not use Citrix to do both?

Publish the desktop via Citrix and run the custom app within the desktop or
not, the choice is yours. There is academic pricing too if you are a
college.

You don't have to invest in new clients, you can use any old desktop as a
thin client.

Cheers

Russell
Russell Robertson
Skibo Technologies
The Software Centre
Aberdeen Science & Technology Park
Balgownie Drive, ABERDEEN
AB22 8GU
T: +44 (0)1224 355250
E: russell.robertson@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:russell.robertson@xxxxxxxxxx> 
W: www.skibo.com <http://www.skibo.com/>  

Microsoft Certified Partners
Citrix Solutions Advisers
Northern Business Star Awards Finalists 2005 


________________________________

From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Keith Sirmons
Sent: 28 October 2005 15:23
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Hybrid question?



Thin Gurus,



We want to move an application from being installed on all client machines
to a Citrix server.  This really is not a problem.  



Since we were looking to invest into Citrix, I decided it would be a good
idea to move toward using thin clients from Wyse.  



Well, it looks like the high initial cost of Citrix is keeping us from
converting to the Holy Grail of thin computing.



Here is the question??.



Is there a way we can use Citrix to deploy our custom application to the
entire organization and use Microsoft Terminal services to deploy desktops
to thin clients at the same time on the same set of servers?



We know at any given time there are at most 60 users using the app that
would be on Citrix.  When I was gathering prices, I had my Citrix licenses
neede d at 250 to be able to handle not only this app but also MS office and
GroupWise. 



Any thoughts on this hybrid option would be very helpful.





Thank you in advance,

Keith Sirmons

Keith Sirmons
Microcomputer/LAN Administrator
College of Veterinary Medicine



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