[TCUG] Re: See how useful the survey is

Having started this hare running, I mentioned it at the CSS Transport=0D=0A=
Committee on Friday. I have been asked to try and draw together as much=0D=0A=
information as possible so that we can produce a response to this sort=0D=0A=
of enquiry/rant in the future. I've tracked Dave's link, which is to a=0D=0A=
news report rather than a formal evaluation, can anyone point me to any=0D=0A=
proper results from this sort of scheme - from the Netherlands, the UK=0D=0A=
or elsewhere=3F=0D=0A=0D=0APeter Bull=20=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message--=
---=0D=0AFrom: tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=
 On=0D=0ABehalf Of mervyn.hallworth@xxxxxxxxxxxx=0D=0ASent: 05 March 2008 1=
5:06=0D=0ATo: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=0D=0ASubject: [TCUG] Re: See how useful th=
e survey is=0D=0A=0D=0ADave,=0D=0AThanks for that - it's good that someone =
has managed to find the time=0D=0A(in between dealing with the floods of re=
quests for new traffic signals=0D=0Ano=0D=0Adoubt!) to de-bunk all this 'of=
f with their heads' hype!  I suspected=0D=0Athat the Netherlands experience=
 would eventually prove to be based on=0D=0Areally low flows, and it looks =
like you've just confirmed it.=0D=0A=0D=0AIt is clearly absurd  that  the s=
orts of flows/conflicts we struggle to=0D=0Adeal with on a daily basis (usu=
ally successfully) can in any way be=0D=0Aaddressed by the use of 'shared s=
pace'.=20=0D=0A=0D=0ABut that is no reason to be complacent. We need to red=
ouble our efforts=0D=0Ato stop inefficient designs being forced on the publ=
ic by those of the=0D=0Aopposite persuasion to the 'shared space' people (i=
=2Ee. the 'shared=0D=0Amisery'=20=0D=0Apeople). The inappropriate use of 's=
traight-across' peds, for example,=0D=0Amust account for much 'bad press' a=
nd certainly much congestion. The=0D=0Airony is that if this sort of juncti=
on were to be switched off as in the=0D=0ANetherlands  - what chance would =
the peds have then (they would probably=0D=0Abite our hand off for a well d=
esigned staggered crossing with a nice bit=0D=0Aof guardrail!).=20=0D=0A=0D=
=0AMervyn=0D=0A0113 2476750=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A"David Birki=
nshaw" <david.birkinshaw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>=20=0D=0ASent by: tcug-bounce@f=
reelists.org=0D=0A04/03/2008 16:58=0D=0APlease respond to=0D=0Atcug@freelis=
ts.org=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ATo=0D=0A<tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>=0D=0Acc=0D=0A=0D=0ASub=
ject=0D=0A[TCUG] Re: See how useful the survey is=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A"At the now celebrated lights-free Laweiplein intersection i=
n Drachten=0D=0Ain the Netherlands, the chief danger is from crowds of fore=
ign experts=0D=0Awatching incredulously as traffic merges with pedestrians =
and separates,=0D=0Aunaided by robots"=0D=0A=0D=0AHmmmmmm and grrrrrrrrrr=0D=
=0A=0D=0AI looked at the background of the "celebrated Laweiplein lights-fr=
ee=0D=0Aintersection".  What they don't make clear is that=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=
                 Laweiplein has a population of about 55,000=0D=0A=0D=0A   =
              there are only 1407 pcu's per hour in the peak period,=20=0D=0A=
with=0D=0Aabout            20,000 vehicles per day - luxury=0D=0A=0D=0A    =
             the article gives the impression the traffic were=0D=0Asimply =0D=
=0Aremoved=0D=0Awithout mentioning that in fact the junction was replaced w=
ith a=0D=0Aroundabout - we wouldn't' be able to do that in the middle of ou=
r=0D=0Aurban areas.  We usually end up putting traffic signals in where a=0D=
=0Aroundabout won't fit and or the existing roundabout doesn't work=0D=0A=0D=
=0A                 I don't know but I strongly suspect that the existing =0D=
=0Asignals=0D=0Awere             probably working fixed time (you can find =
pictures on=0D=0Athe=0D=0Ainternet).               It would be interesting =
to know how efficiently=0D=0A=0D=0Athey=0D=0Awere working             compa=
red to UK standards!  It seems strange=0D=0Athat=20=0D=0Athere=0D=0Aappears=
 to be            2 approach lanes on at least one leg and yet,=20=0D=0Aapp=
arently=0D=0Athere were               105 sec vehicle delays with signal co=
ntrol.=0D=0AFrom=20=0D=0Athe=0D=0Alayout it looks                  like the=
 pedestrians had an all-red=0D=0Astage=20=0D=0Aif=0D=0Aanything.=0D=0Asee l=
ink=0D=0Ahttp://www.urbanitebaltimore.com/sub.cfm=3FissueID=3D52&sectionID=3D=
4&articleI=0D=0AD=3D748=0D=0A                 There appears to be a bus lan=
e but just how effectively=0D=0A=0D=0Athe bus=0D=0Apriority is demanded and=
 signalled is not known=0D=0A=0D=0A                 2 of the 4 zebra crossi=
ngs have been placed further=0D=0Aaway=20=0D=0Afrom=0D=0Athe              r=
oundabout than usual=0D=0A=0D=0A                 The technical report on th=
e scheme says that=0D=0A"pedestrians=20=0D=0Aseem=0D=0Ato               cro=
ss faster (running). This could be contributed to an=0D=0A=0D=0Aunsafe=0D=0A=
feeling                  and it happens at both the bicycle crossing and=0D=
=0A=0D=0Athe=0D=0Apedestrian cross                 walks".  That wouldn't b=
e good for the=20=0D=0Aelderly=0D=0Aetc.=0D=0A=0D=0A                 The Qu=
estionnaire is based on about 135 respondents=0D=0A=0D=0A                 T=
he Shared Space lobby also go on and on about the De=20=0D=0ABrink=0D=0Atra=
ffic                  signals where they have a massive 4,500=0D=0Avehicles=
=20=0D=0Aa day=0D=0Aand Bohmte               where they have about 12,500 v=
ehicles a day and=0D=0Aa=0D=0Apopulation of about              13,500.=0D=0A=0D=
=0AI don't have a problem and actively encourage and support reducing=0D=0A=
street clutter and making areas more attractive etc etc and we have been=0D=
=0Ainvolved with such schemes in Nottingham - but I get a bit angry when=0D=
=0Athese bandwagoners start to give the impression that we should be doing=0D=
=0Athis everywhere.=0D=0A=0D=0ARant over - feeling better now=0D=0A=0D=0ADa=
ve=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: tcug-=
bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On=0D=0ABehalf Of B=
ull Peter=0D=0ASent: 03 March 2008 18:24=0D=0ATo: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=0D=0AS=
ubject: [TCUG] Re: See how useful the survey is=0D=0A=0D=0AThanks for that =
Keith, and to show I've absorbed it, here's one I've=0D=0Adone myself which=
 people may find interesting/exasperating entitled "Rip=0D=0Aout the traffi=
c lights and railings. Our streets are better without=0D=0Athem"=0D=0A=0D=0A=
 http://tinyurl.com/yonzu7=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0APeter Bull=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=
=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:=
tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On=0D=0ABehalf Of Keith Hoggett=0D=0ASent: 03 Ma=
rch 2008 11:48=0D=0ATo: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'=0D=0ASubject: [TCUG] Re: See h=
ow useful the survey is=0D=0A=0D=0ATo save cutting and pasting use tinyurl =
and the link becomes:=0D=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/2cwgqf=0D=0Awhich should rema=
in intact.=0D=0ARegards=0D=0AKeith Hoggett=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original M=
essage-----=0D=0AFrom: Grahame Bath [mailto:grahame.bath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=0D=
=0ASent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:46 PM=0D=0ATo: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=0D=0A=
Subject: [TCUG] Re: See how useful the survey is=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AWell - it=
 took  a bit of cutting and pasting, but got there eventually.=0D=0A=0D=0AB=
est if you just use the first bit to get the Mercury Page and then=0D=0Asel=
ect "we have the most traffic lights......."=0D=0ALove the comment from one=
 correspondent -  "........most drivers have=0D=0Acommon sense!!"  Hmmm.=0D=
=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ARegards=0D=0A=0D=0AGr=
ahame=0D=0A................................................................=
=2E.......=0D=0A....=0D=0A..=0D=0A=0D=0AGrahame Bath=0D=0ASenior Engineer=0D=
=0ANetwork Management & Information=0D=0ASurrey County Council=0D=0A020 854=
1 7346 (Tel)   020 8541 7366 (Fax)=0D=0A...................................=
=2E....................................=0D=0A....=0D=0A....=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A             "Bull Peter"=0D=0A=0D=0A  =
           <Peter.Bull@sheff=0D=0A=0D=0A             ield.gov.uk>=0D=0ATo=0D=
=0A             Sent by:                  <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>=0D=0A=0D=0A =
            tcug-bounce@freel=0D=0Acc=0D=0A             ists.org=0D=0A=0D=0A=
=20=0D=0ASubject=0D=0A                                       [TCUG] See how=
 useful the survey=0D=0Ais=0D=0A             29/02/08 17:05=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A             Please respond to=0D=0A=0D=0A         =
    tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxx=0D=0A=0D=0A                     g=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=
=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0APeople are already making use of =
the TSG survey - unfortunately not=0D=0Anecessarily very productively!=0D=0A=0D=
=0AHave a look at this=0D=0Ahttp://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/displayNode.j=
sp=3FnodeId=3D132384&command=3D=0D=0AdisplayContent&sourceNode=3D232710&hom=
e=3Dyes&more_nodeId1=3D132393&contentPK=3D=0D=0A20018136=0D=0A=0D=0AI under=
stand that this arose after Leicestershire's lead member asked=0D=0Afor the=
 data and then passed it to the local paper - who appear to have=0D=0Adone =
a bit of a mashup with area data. All the data would be available=0D=0Ato a=
nyone who made a freedom of information request to any of us, and I=0D=0Ado=
n't feel it is a bad thing for it to be in the public domain, but it=0D=0Ad=
oes illustrate the effect of looking at things from a different angle.=0D=0A=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A--=0D=0APeter Bull=0D=0ATraffic Information & Control Manage=
r=0D=0A=0D=0ASheffield City Council, 2-10 Carbrook Hall Road, Sheffield S9 =
2DB=0D=0ATel: (0114) 273 6174   Fax: (0114) 273 6182=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=
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