[talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <forums@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:01:26 +0100
John,
I have indeed been to the educational establishments in the UK, and studied
at 4 of them. Some used JAWS and others used Super Nova. None used Window
Eyes.
I would argue that in the majority of cases educational establishments
within the uK tend towards Super Nova as it offers for a reasonable price
magnification and speech in one package.
However, I repeat what I originally stated, the trend in educational
establishments is to keep with the status quo, mainly as once you've began
on a route using access technology its normally a lot more expensive to up
sticks and leave to an alternative platform. Therefore if they had JAWS in
the first place they'll stick with it, due to cost and training.
Thus as many institutes started with JAWS they still have it. This does not
mean that they think it's the bees knees or that they believe it to be the
only product in existence.
It's simply historical that they use that which they've paid for and are
familiar with.
As someone who has a close friend who is the head teacher at one of this
countries last remaining VI schools, and who has close ties to another I can
tell you that neither of these facilities soley use JAWS, and in the case of
the school they have not a single license of it.
I believe this abolishes your fact as stated. As I am saying, its not fair
to say that a lot of institutes do not use JAWS, but it is incorrect to say
that they force it upon their students and claim it to be the only choice
for them.
Many colleges I went to as a blind person in fact hold events for access
technology companies to attend and demonstrate their kit. I first
experienced Voice Over for PC the £80 screen reader whilst studying at one
of these supposid enforcers of JAWS... so surely this disproves your
statement further?
Thanks.
Twitter: @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
TalkNav
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility dealer, with online activation codes sent
directly to your inbox minutes after ordering, why not use TalkNav today?
www.talknav.com
sales@xxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of bjcolt
Sent: 21 June 2010 10:31
To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
Hi Ibrahim ,
O.k I am here. I doubt whether you will break any arguments down I have
stated.
I would also like to make it clear I have no axe to grind at all. I would be
very careful Neil about making false assumptions. I am neither a vengeful
person or one who walks away from anything. I didn't realize that what I
said by not giving anyone a chance to reply would "Piss anyone off". I take
it you Neil have not been to the educational facilities in Britain either.
I didn't want any arguments but to stop what I think was wrong. Everyone is
entitled to an opinion no matter what that opinion is, as long as it is
based on facts.
I have personal knowledge about the education system and the powers that be
within that system. I have a close friend who has worked in that sector for
the past 20 years as a V.I lecturer. Believe me the information he has given
me is indeed accurate 100%.
I will wait to see the outcome of this debate.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ibrahim Gucukoglu" <ibrahim_gucukoglu@xxxxxxxx>
To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 11:14 PM
Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
> Hi John.
>
> My god, you are one cravon coward. Why cant you stay on the list and take
> the backlash of argument like a man if that is indeed what you are. Once
> you confirm that you are in fact staying, I'm going to break your
> arguments down one by one but what pisses me off more than anything is
> people who make bold, brash and unfounded statements then clear off before
> they can be challenged.
>
> All the best, An extremely annoyed Ibrahim.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bjcolt" <bjcolt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:56 PM
> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>
>
>>
>> Dear Neil,
>>
>> I am not sure if you have a personal gripe with Darren but what he has
>> stated regarding JWS and education is an actual fact and what's more I
>> can prove it. I have just spent 8 years in the education system and know
>> exactly what the political situation is with JWS and other screen reading
>> programmers.
>> As far as the education system is concerned JWS is given priority over
>> all other screen reading programmers.
>>
>> As for V.I people stealing and committing a criminal offence regarding
>> talks. I am well aware of the contract we sign when talks is installed
>> but as consumers we also have rights. The talks upgrades while
>> addressing some problems also leave some issues unresolved like the email
>> situation in certain phones. So are we really getting our money's worth
>> or are we getting ad hock fixes at random intervals.
>> ?This is not a slight on anyone of the talks team who do a fantastic job
>> at trying to resolve issues but how much money is being invested in the
>> production of talks or will it eventually come down to "If it is not
>> making a profit then close it down".
>>
>> This is not a personal attack on anyone and I am unsubscribing from the
>> list as soon as this e mail is posted.
>>
>> As disability is socially created then society should be responsible for
>> what they have created. Why do Visually Impaired people have to pay
>> exorbitant prices just to be equal to society? Yet society is
>> uninterested in creating equality regarding consumer products, with some
>> exceptions. The touch screen phone is just one example. It is a sighted
>> world and will continue to be so. Are businesses really interested in
>> disabled people? The majority of V.I people are unemployed and that is
>> down to employers and how we are treated in society. A sighted person
>> does not require specialist programmes that cost a small fortune. We do
>> and have to pay dearly for them.
>>
>> Sorry I am very much a socialist and abhore the capatalist system as it
>> robs consumers of their just rights. As far as I am concerned it is the
>> capatalist system who are cheating and stealing. Two facts of thousands
>> speak for this fact Bopal in India and the Exon oil disaster. Human
>> beings are still fighting for compensation on both cases and the multi
>> national companies are using the justice system to prevent them getting
>> their rights. This is a discussion for another time and place and I
>> strongly suggest that the moderator stop this thread as I for one have
>> left this list.
>>
>> John
>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <forums@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:44 PM
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>
>> Darren,
>>
>> I've never heard an institute state that only JAWS is an option, that's
>> just
>> your view,.. in the states where Apple are used in many of the education
>> facilities FS, GW and the others don't even get a look in.
>>
>> It's mainly what institutions are used to and what they have a historical
>> use pattern of. Nothing more nothing less. I'm sure if you went and
>> preached
>> to them they'd convert.
>>
>> Twitter: @neilbarnfather
>>
>> Neil Barnfather
>> TalkNav
>>
>> Talks List Administrator
>>
>> TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility dealer, with online activation codes
>> sent
>> directly to your inbox minutes after ordering, why not use TalkNav today?
>>
>> www.talknav.com
>> sales@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Darren Harris
>> Sent: 20 June 2010 12:01
>> To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>> Yeah I've heard a lot about that too. Email me off list but do you get
>> access to all the other stuff that they offer as well? Like the audio
>> content and all that.
>>
>> But yes the business model is what will sell the product in the end.
>> Unless
>> like in the fs style of business you brainwash people. Look at education
>> establishments and the like. Everything is jaws jaws jaws and according
>> to
>> them nothing else exists. Which really isn't fare on the end consumer is
>> it.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Saqib
>> Sent: 20 June 2010 11:10
>> To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>
>> Talking of screen readers. I use System Access. Their business model is
>> that
>>
>> you buy once and get free updates for life. They ditched SMAs long ago.
>> Transfering licenses doesn't cost a penny either. Once you buy System
>> Access
>>
>> you have 2 licenses to run on any two machines. Now that's the best
>> business
>>
>> model I've come across and Serotek wouldn't disagree with that either.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 11:24 PM
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>
>>
>> Whether you're allowed too or not really doesn't matter. The point is
>> that
>> if companies play fare qith their customers then the customers will
>> respond
>> accordingly. If said company doesn't like i think fs doesn't then people
>> will just ditch it like i did. Am not going to pay stupid money for
>> something that i can get cheaper elsewhere and that has far more value
>> for
>> money. Who in their right mind would. Look at what happened to
>> woolworths.
>> It priced itself out of business because it got greedy. It's now only
>> surviving as an online company.
>>
>> The point is that the market is getting much more competitive because
>> mainstream technology is allowing it too. For how much longer for example
>> do
>>
>> you think note taking devices will sell when you can get netbooks and
>> small
>> braille displays? It's all a point of demand. If there's a cheaper
>> alternative then people will go for that.
>> -original message-
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>> From: "Alex Stone" <alex.stone@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: 19:06:2010 11.10 pm
>>
>> Darren, the logic behind your response just doesn't add up. Effectively
>> what
>>
>> your saying is that if I think a shop is charging too much for their
>> products then I should be allowed to go in there and nick stuff. Cheers
>> Alex
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: 19 June 2010 20:38
>> To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>> please neil don't pull this one on me it really doesn't work. Companies
>> rip
>> customers off all the time but they're quite happy to do it and then cry
>> fowl play when someone does it back to them.
>>
>> personally i don't care either way, it's how the world works whether you
>> like it or not. If a company does right by it's customers then the
>> customers
>>
>> will respond in an equal fassion. If they don't then said customers will
>> either rip them off or otherwise walk away to someone else. It's a very
>> simple concept really.
>>
>> Firstly, i'm loyal to myself first. Before anything else or anybody else.
>> Because nobody else is going to look after my needs and requirements
>> other
>> than me.
>>
>> If a company serves said requirement in terms of product and value for
>> money
>>
>> then so be it. The moment it doesn't then i will simply dispose of it. I
>> happily disposed of jaws for that reason. It wasn't serving my computer
>> needs to a satisfactory degree, it wasn't stable, the price of SMA's went
>> up
>>
>> and up each year and it got to the point when i decided that it wasn't
>> worth
>>
>> the money. So i went over to wineyes back in 2007 and i haven't paid a
>> penny
>>
>> since. It serves my physical and financial needs, why would i want to go
>> back to what is an inpheerier business design which is clearly in my
>> opinion designed to pocket scoop?
>> -original message-
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <forums@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: 19:06:2010 8.24 pm
>>
>> So just because in your eyes Nuance hasn't earned customer loyalty, it's
>> fine to rip them off and steel from them? Is that what you are saying...
>>
>> Just because you do not like their business model doesn't mean you have
>> to
>> buy from them. Likewise it doesn't mean that you have to steel from them
>> or
>> condone such action either.
>>
>> Twitter: @neilbarnfather
>>
>> Neil Barnfather
>> TalkNav
>>
>> Talks List Administrator
>>
>> TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility dealer, with online activation codes
>> sent
>> directly to your inbox minutes after ordering, why not use TalkNav today?
>>
>> www.talknav.com
>> sales@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: 19 June 2010 20:00
>> To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>
>> Not really, if 1 company offers a better business moddle than another, fs
>> vs
>>
>> gw micro for example. It's a question of bang for your bick. I wouldn't
>> ever
>>
>> go back to fs now if you paid me. Gw offers a comparible product and i
>> haven't paid anything else in addition for the last 3 years. I'm
>> interested
>> in getting good value for money. Nothing more nothing less. Basically if
>> a
>> particular company is seen to be screwing it's customers over and over,
>> then
>>
>> more problems are going to be created as a result. Of course you will get
>> a
>> few who will screw the system no matter how much a company tries to give
>> value for money to it's customers. But if a company is seen to be giving
>> value for money and not pocket scooping all the time then you will gain a
>> lot more customer loyalty.
>> -original message-
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <forums@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: 19:06:2010 7.49 pm
>>
>> Darren,
>>
>> If you were on the Talks International list I'd have you for remarks like
>> that, a company charging whatever it wishes to for a product is entitled
>> to
>> do so. You are not forced to buy their products are you...?
>>
>> If you set out to sell your TV next week, and I do not like how much you
>> are
>>
>> selling it for, buy your attitude I'm entitled to just steel it from you.
>> What a crazy point of view and how very unenlightened.
>>
>> Twitter: @neilbarnfather
>>
>> Neil Barnfather
>> TalkNav
>>
>> Talks List Administrator
>>
>> TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility dealer, with online activation codes
>> sent
>> directly to your inbox minutes after ordering, why not use TalkNav today?
>>
>> www.talknav.com
>> sales@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: 19 June 2010 19:10
>> To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>
>> Well if a company is going to rip off it's customers then stuff like this
>> is
>>
>> going to happen isn't it.
>> -original message-
>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>> From: Saqib <saqib@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: 19:06:2010 6.59 pm
>>
>> Well I have also got a copy of Mobile Speak 4. If I wanted to move the
>> copy
>> to a new phone then I simply have to install MS on the new phone and
>> insert
>> my simcard and the software will be fully activated as the licensing for
>> MS4
>> is based on your phone number. I don't know why Nuance don't take this
>> approach as they would prevent phones being sold with Talks on them.
>> Nuance
>> only offer the sim serial number license which is not the same as phone
>> number licensing and you have to pay out around £75 if you lose your
>> simcard
>> If they took the phone number licensing approach then losing your simcard
>> wouldn't be a big deal and selling phones wouldn't be a problem as you
>> could
>> just sell to a secondhand shop or privately. I think there are two
>> reasons
>> why people sell Talks phones on selling lists. One is that they wan't to
>> get
>> as much as they can for the phone in order to pay some of that money
>> towards
>> a cross upgrade and the other reason being that they would want to sell
>> to
>> someone who needs a Talks enabled phone at a low cost. I know plenty of
>> people who just couldn't afford a new phone along with a new license of
>> Talks. There for it's only benefecial for them to wait for a secondhand
>> phone on a selling list as I've seen some being sold as little as £70. I
>> actually bought a Talks phone for £40 before Christmas for a friend who
>> simply couldn't afford a new phone along with a new license of Talks. In
>> this regard my friend benefitted from someone selling a phone with Talks
>> on
>> all be it the phone was 3 years out of date. It's now enabled him to keep
>> in
>> contact with me and his other friends and he now sends and receives texts
>> from his circle of friends. The seller of the phone only went on to
>> purchase
>> a new cross phone upgrade from Talknav so everyone wins in that respect.
>> Original message:
>>> Would you take vista off a laptop if you were selling it?
>>
>>> If they wanted to stop this they'd have the license movable so
>>> deactivate on one and reactivate on another.
>>
>>> It's why they charge for moving it, because they know it'll be sold
>>> with talks working.
>>
>>> But anyway as to the point in the first place.
>>
>>> Uninstall it from the phone and just put back a demo but even then you
>>> or some one else could reactivate by text couldn't they?
>>
>>> The MI number would be the same so couldn't it be reregister it
>>> anyway?
>>
>>> Ta Scott.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Karen Burgess - Email Address: karen7475@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent On:
>>> 19/06/2010 16:57 Sent To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx - Email Address:
>>> talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>> hi there
>>
>>> exactly, that is why most of us sell our phones with talks already on
>>> because we can use the money to pay for the next talks upgrade, I've
>>> done this several times. never thought of it as being illegal mind
>>> you lol.
>>
>>> kaz
>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Saqib" <saqib@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 4:43 PM
>>> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>>> Hi Karren If you look at it from the sellers point of view! They are
>>>> getting a better return by selling the phone with Talks on it as the
>>>> extra money will pay for their next cross phone upgrade. We've been
>>>> down this road on the other Talks list and we were told to advertise
>>>> the phone Talks compatable and not to be persific about whether Talks
>>>> is installed on it or not. It would then be the buyers descression on
>>>> whether to purchase the phone or not. Original message:
>>>>> well every phone I've sold I've sent with the version of talks on
>>>>> it.
>>>>> it
>>>>> doesn't mean I lose the licence though as I always use it to upgrade
>>>>> but
>>>>> I've never deleted the talks before sending it. after all, the buyer
>>>>> can't
>>>>> use my licence so why not let them have the talks on the phone its no
>>>>> good
>>>>> to me.
>>
>>>>> kaz
>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Saqib" <saqib@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:31 PM
>>>>> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>>>>> Nuance lose out for every phone that gets sold with Talks on.
>>>>>> Apparently we must remove the license and software so the buyer
>>>>>> must purchase a new license. Through this method Nuance will gain a
>>>>>> extra £100 for each new Talks user and not to mention the possible
>>>>>> income gained from further upgrades by the new user. Original
>>>>>> message:
>>>>>>> Sorry?
>>
>>>>>>> Why would you not just leave it on?
>>
>>>>>>> Use the up grade and sell it working.
>>
>>>>>>> Why would anyone not just do that?
>>
>>>>>>> Am I missing something here?
>>
>>>>>>> Ta Scott.
>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Saqib - Email Address: Saqib@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Sent On: 19/06/2010 11:26
>>>>>>> Sent To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx - Email Address:
>>>>>>> talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Selling phones with Talks installed
>>
>>>>>>> Hi I have tried deleting the license code and it does clear.
>>>>>>> However when I
>>>>>>> go back in to manual registration the license number re-appears and
>>>>>>> Talks
>>>>>>> works as it should in full working mode.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Clive Pallett" <clive.pallett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: "Talks-UK" <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 1:21 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [talks-uk] Selling phones with Talks installed
>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>>>>>>> I know this was discussed a little while ago, so apologies for
>>>>>>>> going over old ground.
>>
>>>>>>>> when you are selling a phone with Talks installed, can you just
>>>>>>>> erase your license code? I assume by doing this it will go into
>>>>>>>> ten-minute mode,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> would it be possible to put it into either ten- or thirty-day demo
>>>>>>>> mode
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> the prospective purchaser can apply for a cross-phone license?
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> they will have a phone with Talks installed to get them started
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> phone. Thanks in advance for clarification.
>>
>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>
>>>>>>>> Clive Pallett
>>
>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> --------------
>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2946 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 06/18/10 07:35:00
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2948 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 06/19/10
>>>>>> 07:35:00
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2948 - Release Date:
>>>> 06/19/10 07:35:00
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
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